Oliver Stone

[Henry M]

Paul, family is just the most extreme example.  If I esteem my country over
a country that appears to be threatening it, perhaps one that is ruled by a
dictator that tortures large numbers of people, what would the appropriate
be then?

And why hesistantly, all of a sudden, now?
Yours truly,
٩(●̮̮̃•̃)۶
Henry Musikar, CISSP
http://astore.amazon.com/tdcoccamsaxe-20


On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 8:08 AM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at verizon.net>wrote:

>  On 1/16/2013 6:49 AM, Henry M wrote:
>
> I'm just being honest and forthright.  Let's throw innocence to the side
> for the moment, as it is a practically meaningless, and ask if you would be
> willing to ensure the death of two people holding your child hostage in
> order to ensure the safety of your child?  Where is your moral compass
> now?
>
>
> Yeah, I suppose Henry is right enough on his own terms, but the example is
> quite hypothetical and unrealistic.  It'd be a colossal conflict of
> interest to have the person whose loved ones are directly in the line of
> fire
> making the necessary geopolitical decision as to who's going to get killed.
>
> In response to Rich, I'd agree that yes once Slothrop got more or less
> written out of the script things went down hill.  (there were still a few
> great moments) Unfortunately-- or more likely fortunately-- neither the
> p-list nor P himself is going to be consulted on wartime decisions.
>
> Hesitantly,
>
> P
>
>
>
>
> Yours truly,
> ٩(●̮̮̃•̃)۶
> Henry Musikar, CISSP
> http://astore.amazon.com/tdcoccamsaxe-20
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 5:31 PM, <malignd at aol.com> wrote:
>
>> "Some number"?  What might that "some" be?  Tens of thousands in order to
>> save your nephew?  Do you have a moral compass?
>>
>>
>>  -----Original Message-----
>> From: Henry M <scuffling at gmail.com>
>> To: Pynchon Liste <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>> Sent: Tue, Jan 15, 2013 1:09 pm
>> Subject: Re: Oliver Stone (was:Pauper and Sweatshop Fallacies)
>>
>>  In an us vs. them world, x should not be the number of lives saved or
>> lost by an act, but how many more of their lives are "we" ready to
>> terminate in order lower, or end, "our" losses.  It may sound harsh, but
>> I'm comfortable with some number of innocent people dying (as long as I
>> don't know them or see them die) in order to save the life of someone in my
>> family; fewer people to save a bff; still fewer people to save someone I
>> grew up with; even fewer to save someone I don't know at all but with whom
>> I share something more than being human.
>>
>> Yours truly,
>> ٩(●̮̮̃•̃)۶
>> Henry Musikar, CISSP
>> http://astore.amazon.com/tdcoccamsaxe-20
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 4:40 PM, <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Alice said:
>>>
>>> [insert your choice here, but please no Howard Zinn or Oliver
>>> Stone ;-)]?
>>>
>>>
>>> Oh, Alice, Alice, you brought it upon yourself!  I was looking for some
>>> gratuitous opening to bring up Oliver Stone's new series:The Untold History
>>> of the United States, and you supplied it.  Now before you start beating on
>>> me, I'll say that it's a pretty flawed documentary.  One device he uses
>>> that's both dishonest and annoying is to have actors recite quotes from
>>> various personages, making it seem as if we're listening to a historic
>>> oration, rather than a reenacted reading of someone else's written or
>>> spoken words.  He's weak on attributing sources, uses way too much
>>> Hollywood footage to make rhetorical points (as opposed to using it to show
>>> the mentality of the particular time), and gets over-zealous in praising
>>> various personages (as various as Henry Wallace and Stalin), to the point
>>> where the so-called documentary devolves to overt propaganda of Fox-level
>>> intensity.  The worst part of this is that, in doing so, he drives away
>>> mainstream viewers who could actually be enlightened by some of the things
>>> he has to say.
>>>
>>> But he still makes some good points, and asks questions that are rarely
>>> if ever asked on such a mainstream venue as Showtime.  In last week's
>>> episode, by way of discussing Bushes senior and junior, he brought up the
>>> shameful history of Prescott Bush and other American industrialists who
>>> supported the Nazi regime (something that we discuss all the time here, by
>>> way of GR).
>>>
>>> I particularly liked the episode that covered Hiroshima and Nagasaki,
>>> wherein he tackled the standard orthodoxy:  By dropping the bomb, we saved
>>> x number of lives.  This passionately defended point has been the endless
>>> fodder for Thanksgiving dinner fights with in-laws, etc., with countless
>>> (always male)defenders shrieking variations of (naively confident that no
>>> one will make the obvious, hostile rejoinder): "Hey my [father,
>>> grandfather] was stationed in the Pacific.  If we hadn't dropped the bomb
>>> [incinerated small children], he would have had to invade Japan, and I
>>> would never have been born!"
>>>
>>> The Stone episode brings up some convincing evidence that Japan, afraid
>>> of an impending invasion by the Soviet army, was ready to capitulate, but
>>> Truman stalled any negotiations, and convinced the Soviets not to invade,
>>> so the "tests" could be run.  Stone also provides a nice montage showing
>>> how the variable x in "we saved x number of lives" increased steadily over
>>> time.  I suspect there are plenty on this list who are devoted to the
>>> bomb-saved-lives orthodoxy.  I'm glad Stone questions it, if only on
>>> subscriber cable TV.
>>>
>>> Laura
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> >From: alice wellintown <alicewellintown at gmail.com>
>>> >Sent: Jan 14, 2013 5:49 AM
>>> >To: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>>> >Subject: Re: Pauper and Sweatshop Fallacies
>>> >
>>> >Why would I deny it? Why would anyone who knows a bit of history, who
>>> >reads the newspapers, who has read One Hundred Years of Solitude,
>>> >M&D...any decent narrative about colonialism, orientalism, a but of
>>> >Said or [insert your choice here, but please no Howard Zinn or Oliver
>>> >Stone ;-)]?
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
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