Oliver Stone
Paul Mackin
mackin.paul at verizon.net
Wed Jan 16 11:18:53 CST 2013
On 1/16/2013 8:34 AM, Henry M wrote:
> Paul, family is just the most extreme example. If I esteem my country
> over a country that appears to be threatening it, perhaps one that is
> ruled by a dictator that tortures large numbers of people, what would
> the appropriate be then?
I understand what you are saying.
> And why hesistantly, all of a sudden, now?
My new year's resolution.
P
> Yours truly,
> ٩(●̮̮̃•̃)۶
> Henry Musikar, CISSP
> http://astore.amazon.com/tdcoccamsaxe-20
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 8:08 AM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at verizon.net
> <mailto:mackin.paul at verizon.net>> wrote:
>
> On 1/16/2013 6:49 AM, Henry M wrote:
>> I'm just being honest and forthright. Let's throw innocence to
>> the side for the moment, as it is a practically meaningless, and
>> ask if you would be willing to ensure the death of two people
>> holding your child hostage in order to ensure the safety of your
>> child? Where is your moral compass now?
>
> Yeah, I suppose Henry is right enough on his own terms, but the
> example is quite hypothetical and unrealistic. It'd be a colossal
> conflict of interest to have the person whose loved ones are
> directly in the line of fire
> making the necessary geopolitical decision as to who's going to
> get killed.
>
> In response to Rich, I'd agree that yes once Slothrop got more or
> less written out of the script things went down hill. (there were
> still a few great moments) Unfortunately-- or more likely
> fortunately-- neither the p-list nor P himself is going to be
> consulted on wartime decisions.
>
> Hesitantly,
>
> P
>
>
>>
>>
>> Yours truly,
>> ٩(●̮̮̃•̃)۶
>> Henry Musikar, CISSP
>> http://astore.amazon.com/tdcoccamsaxe-20
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 5:31 PM, <malignd at aol.com
>> <mailto:malignd at aol.com>> wrote:
>>
>> "Some number"? What might that "some" be? Tens of thousands
>> in order to save your nephew? Do you have a moral compass?
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Henry M <scuffling at gmail.com <mailto:scuffling at gmail.com>>
>> To: Pynchon Liste <pynchon-l at waste.org
>> <mailto:pynchon-l at waste.org>>
>> Sent: Tue, Jan 15, 2013 1:09 pm
>> Subject: Re: Oliver Stone (was:Pauper and Sweatshop Fallacies)
>>
>> In an us vs. them world, x should not be the number of lives
>> saved or lost by an act, but how many more of their lives are
>> "we" ready to terminate in order lower, or end, "our"
>> losses. It may sound harsh, but I'm comfortable with some
>> number of innocent people dying (as long as I don't know them
>> or see them die) in order to save the life of someone in my
>> family; fewer people to save a bff; still fewer people to
>> save someone I grew up with; even fewer to save someone I
>> don't know at all but with whom I share something more than
>> being human.
>>
>> Yours truly,
>> ٩(●̮̮̃•̃)۶
>> Henry Musikar, CISSP
>> http://astore.amazon.com/tdcoccamsaxe-20
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 4:40 PM, <kelber at mindspring.com
>> <mailto:kelber at mindspring.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Alice said:
>>
>> [insert your choice here, but please no Howard Zinn or Oliver
>> Stone ;-)]?
>>
>>
>> Oh, Alice, Alice, you brought it upon yourself! I was
>> looking for some gratuitous opening to bring up Oliver
>> Stone's new series:The Untold History of the United
>> States, and you supplied it. Now before you start
>> beating on me, I'll say that it's a pretty flawed
>> documentary. One device he uses that's both dishonest
>> and annoying is to have actors recite quotes from various
>> personages, making it seem as if we're listening to a
>> historic oration, rather than a reenacted reading of
>> someone else's written or spoken words. He's weak on
>> attributing sources, uses way too much Hollywood footage
>> to make rhetorical points (as opposed to using it to show
>> the mentality of the particular time), and gets
>> over-zealous in praising various personages (as various
>> as Henry Wallace and Stalin), to the point where the
>> so-called documentary devolves to overt propaganda of
>> Fox-level intensity. The worst part of this is that, in
>> doing so, he drives away mainstream viewers who could
>> actually be enlightened by some of the things he has to say.
>>
>> But he still makes some good points, and asks questions
>> that are rarely if ever asked on such a mainstream venue
>> as Showtime. In last week's episode, by way of
>> discussing Bushes senior and junior, he brought up the
>> shameful history of Prescott Bush and other American
>> industrialists who supported the Nazi regime (something
>> that we discuss all the time here, by way of GR).
>>
>> I particularly liked the episode that covered Hiroshima
>> and Nagasaki, wherein he tackled the standard orthodoxy:
>> By dropping the bomb, we saved x number of lives. This
>> passionately defended point has been the endless fodder
>> for Thanksgiving dinner fights with in-laws, etc., with
>> countless (always male)defenders shrieking variations of
>> (naively confident that no one will make the obvious,
>> hostile rejoinder): "Hey my [father, grandfather] was
>> stationed in the Pacific. If we hadn't dropped the bomb
>> [incinerated small children], he would have had to invade
>> Japan, and I would never have been born!"
>>
>> The Stone episode brings up some convincing evidence that
>> Japan, afraid of an impending invasion by the Soviet
>> army, was ready to capitulate, but Truman stalled any
>> negotiations, and convinced the Soviets not to invade, so
>> the "tests" could be run. Stone also provides a nice
>> montage showing how the variable x in "we saved x number
>> of lives" increased steadily over time. I suspect there
>> are plenty on this list who are devoted to the
>> bomb-saved-lives orthodoxy. I'm glad Stone questions it,
>> if only on subscriber cable TV.
>>
>> Laura
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> >From: alice wellintown <alicewellintown at gmail.com
>> <mailto:alicewellintown at gmail.com>>
>> >Sent: Jan 14, 2013 5:49 AM
>> >To: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org
>> <mailto:pynchon-l at waste.org>>
>> >Subject: Re: Pauper and Sweatshop Fallacies
>> >
>> >Why would I deny it? Why would anyone who knows a bit of
>> history, who
>> >reads the newspapers, who has read One Hundred Years of
>> Solitude,
>> >M&D...any decent narrative about colonialism,
>> orientalism, a but of
>> >Said or [insert your choice here, but please no Howard
>> Zinn or Oliver
>> >Stone ;-)]?
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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