Pynchon knows this, I say. Sorta always known.

[Monte Davis]

"taking responsibility for both the good stuff and bad stuff you do" -- I'm
down with that.

It's what you mean from moment to moment by "you" that I can't get my head
around. Sometimes the villainous agent or agency is science, sometimes it's
technology (not the same, and much older than science), sometimes it's
industrialization per se, sometimes it's industrial capitalism, sometimes
it's the global scaling-up with population of our species' ecological
footprint.

Are there many connections -- both causal and corollary -- among all these?
Yes.  Are they one and the same Big Bad Thing? No. I'm well aware that I'm
doing that analytical/dissective approach you reject... but if yours is as
coherent as holism gets, I think I'll pass.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On Behalf
Of Joseph Tracy
Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2013 2:20 PM
To: P-list List
Subject: Re: Pynchon knows this, I say. Sorta always known.

Bullshit. I don't support, believe in or advocate Luddism though I don't
particularly despise those with  true and sincere distrust of technology or
tribal peoples who don't want to adopt the technologies and science of the
modern world. I do advocate taking responsibility for both the good stuff
and bad stuff you do.  I advocate technologies  and science that don't
require theft and destruction. I advocate methods that are bio-spherically
respectful and sustainable. 
On Jun 1, 2013, at 12:16 AM, David Morris wrote:

> You essentially advocate Luddism.  I think Tea Party, stupid party,
fearful and reactionary.  I really hope TRP isn't that dumb.
> 
> Dr. Mengele looks a lot like TRP:
> http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Mengele
> 
> Maybe he feels the Dr's guilt.
> 
> David Morris
> 
> On Friday, May 31, 2013, Joseph Tracy wrote:
>  But scientists and technologists are not merely adjuncts to bad political
pressures, they sometimes lead the way into ethically abusive terrain, atom
& then hydrogen bombs, nuclear power plants sited on unstable terrain(
Fukushima) with approval of scientists, medical scientists came up with the
things like the Tuskeegee syphilis experiments, US military experiments
exposing people to radioactive materials, MK Ultra's experiments using
drugs, sensory deprivation and torture on unwitting Canadians. The Nazi
"medical" experiments were often as "scientific" as current experiments on
rats.  The  pragmatic, for some more than others, philosophy  of "Scientific
advancement " demands that materials be mined and provided cheaply no matter
the human and eco costs. Science and the products generated by science
demand access to the materials and cannot ask for a free pass.
> 
> Sometimes scientists provide the disease and then the cure as in DDT, 
> HFCs ,phthalates, and Thalidimide. With global warming there may be no 
> cure
> 
>  You want to say these things are entirely political, but politicians do
not make dioxins or PCBs, do not figure out how to mine with mercury, are
not the inventors of fossil fuel technologies or new plastics and other
products  and techniques that poison the waters and soils.. The presumption
that all the questions and difficulties we face are neatly divisible in such
a way as to absolve  scientists and the  scientific method is not an idea to
which I will be genuflecting.  The science we inherit  has relied heavily on
analysis through dissection, dissolution, explosion and the reduction of all
things to the observable component parts. This has been a mindset with some
very dark consequences because life, and the only reality humans can
actually experience is interactive, conscious, interdependent and more than
the sum of parts or rules. There is no rule by which things desire to live,
and no methodology of science has ever produced a living reproductive
organism. Once again as in the original article there is a large gap between
what  science claims  to know and what can be demonstrated by experiment.
Scientific practice is not  able to be isolated as some pure and benign
pursuit. It has been heavily fueled throughout history by war and greed and
has itself fueled war, injustice and avarice.  Some of this comes out with
heart-rending intensity in Mason and Dixon, Gravity's Rainbow, and Against
the Day.. Equally so in The Metaphysical Club, Frankenstein, A Brave New
World.
> 
> 
> On May 30, 2013, at 10:44 PM, David Morris wrote:
> 
> > Good point.
> > But your beef is entirely political.  It has nothing to do with science
or philosophy, except beyond their application in politics.
> > In the US 3rd parties are almost lays losers.  You seem to be advocating
a allegiance of scientist as a political voice.  And Amen!
> > But that goal isn't about science or philosophy.  It's about pragmatics.
> >
> > David Morris
> >
> > On Thursday, May 30, 2013, Joseph Tracy wrote:
> > No.  I respect and love and admire the creative and inventive
possibilities released by scientific inquiry. But science and scientists do
also get used for, and sometimes actively participate in some real bad shit.
What I was meaning to say and I can see how easily I could be misunderstood
was that we have many global problems that seem to require the immediate
attention and investment of modern science: global warming, toxic materials
in food air and water, rampant hunger and disease, deforestation, etc. but
instead of applying the  powers of science to those issues we are spending
money on hadron colliders and giant space  telescopes looking for the
beginning of the universe.   The thing is there is really no need to rush
these extremely expensive  and/or theoretical projects and every reason to
rush to find better solutions for some of the major issues of immediate
planetary concern.
> >
> >
> >
> > On May 30, 2013, at 5:46 PM, MalignD at aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > So Copernicus, Tycho Brahe, Kepler, Newton, et al are to be held
responsible for AIDS, ebola virus, Lyme disease, etc.  I admit, I hadn't
considered that.
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
> > > To: P-list List <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> > > Sent: Wed, May 29, 2013 11:45 pm
> > > Subject: Re: Pynchon knows this, I say. Sorta always known.
> > >
> > > I think part of the point though is that there is growing evidence 
> > > that science is up against the limits of empiricism and has moved 
> > > it's brightest physicists toward spewing out untestable 
> > > multidimensional string theory and spending billions to collide 
> > > beams in  search of Higgs's God particle. Is this not some kind of 
> > > pseudo scientific holy grail that is as much philosophy as 
> > > physics? Will a unified interpretation follow? How real is the 
> > > thing they may or may not have found and what exactly is the 
> > > question being answered? Cuz it's getting mighty hot around here, 
> > > lots of people with malaria, aids, Lymes, Ebola Lots of children 
> > > starving, species disappearing,  fibers in the web of life 
> > > breaking, lot's of carbon and methane in the wind, toxic shit floating
down the river,arsenic in the rice, radioactive towns, a great deal of it
thanks to the scientific revolution.
> > > On May 29, 2013, at 6:31 PM,
> > > MalignD at aol.com
> > >  wrote:
> > >
> > > > Must disagree.  Shallow, strawman arguments that seem ignorant 
> > > > of the fact
> > > that disagreement, challenge, sometimes piecemeal answers are part 
> > > of science and a large part of what makes it powerful.
> > > >
> > > > The questions he mentions are tough, and certainly there are no easy
answers.
> > > But to suggest we're going to philosophize our way to them is ... 
> > > well:  good luck.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Keith Davis <
> > > kbob42 at gmail.com
> > > >
> > > > To: Joseph Tracy <
> > > brook7 at sover.net
> > > >
> > > > Cc: P-list List <
> > > pynchon-l at waste.org
> > > >
> > > > Sent: Wed, May 29, 2013 3:24 pm
> > > > Subject: Re: Pynchon knows this, I say. Sorta always known.
> > > >
> > > > Amen
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 10:31 AM, Joseph Tracy <
> > >