Pynchon knows this, I say. Sorta always known.

[David Morris]

Please don't hold your breath waiting for an honest response.

On Sunday, June 2, 2013, Monte Davis wrote:

> “science has been and is… an  essential element in holocaust, in genocide…”
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> **(1)    **Please clarify for me the role of science in encouraging or
> enabling Turks to slaughter Armenians, Stalin to starve Ukrainians, Mao to
> starve Chinese, Pol Pot to massacre Cambodians, Hutu to hack Tutsi, Efrain
> Rios Montt’s troops to gun down Mayans, etc. Even w/r/t the Third Reich’s
> “scientific” racism, rumor has it that the pedigree of murderous European
> Jew- and Gypsy- and Slav-hatred predates Hitler, predates Chamberlain and
> Gobineau, and predates Darwin.   ****
>
> ** **
>
> “the Sciences are defining the fundamental ways in which we experience
> the world by defining the world as we experience it.”****
>
> ** **
>
> **(2)    **Please restate this in less tautological form.****
>
> ** **
>
> “Science can not abide… the man who makes a house of nature with an
> extension of his hand.”****
>
> ** **
>
> **(3)  **Please explain to the carpenter working next door as I type
> what, if anything, this means. The poor ignorant fellow shows remarkably
> little concern that the National Academy of Sciences, MIT, IBM, or the laws
> of thermodynamics are bending their chill, pitiless gaze upon him.   ****
>
> ** **
>
> That will do for now. If you can clear up at least some of the sheer
> incoherent nonsense you spout on this topic, we can proceed to what’s
> merely ignorant or mistaken.****
>
> ****
>
> *Perhaps we can proceFrom:* owner-pynchon-l at waste.org <javascript:_e({},
> 'cvml', 'owner-pynchon-l at waste.org');> [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org<javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'owner-pynchon-l at waste.org');>]
> *On Behalf Of *alice wellintown
> *Sent:* Sunday, June 02, 2013 11:34 AM
> *To:* pynchon -l
> *Subject:* Re: Pynchon knows this, I say. Sorta always known.****
>
> ** **
>
> Science and thus the scientist is essential, is indispensable to the
> villainous acts, the evil we have seen in the 20th and 21st century.  ****
>
> Of course there are connections. But when we define the connections,
> clearly, honestly, we see that science has been and is instrumental, has
> been an essential element, in holocaust, in genocide, in war, in evil.
> Science can't wash it hands of these crimes. While no one would attempt to
> defend generals, businessmen, politicians, scientists take exception, make
> excuses for the evil that science has been an integral part of, for the
> evil deeds of scientists. While it would anger nearly everyone in the USA,
> were they to learn that the government protected and defended, even
> supported, a Nazi politician or general or businessman, the Nazi Scientists
> are given special treatment. Von Braun is but one example. Why? Well,
> because the Sciences are defining the fundamental ways in which we
> experience the world by defining the world as we experience it. This is
> quite a powerful position to extend to any group in a society. As the
> saying goes, power corrupts. And, although science is quick to put on the
> cloak of theory, to shield itself from claims to absolutes, for they know
> that power and absolutes exposé them to claims of corruption, to claims
> that science is against life, to accusations of gnostic death dreams (the
> causal and causation is embodied in Blicero), it continues to divide nature
> from human endeavors and it refuses to accept the limits of its reach.
> Science smashes atoms and makes big data virtual tours of space for
> voyeurs, because it can not abide a mystery, magic, or the man who makes a
> house of nature with an extension of his hand. ****
>
> ** **
>
> Today, I worship the hammer. ****
>
>
> On Sunday, June 2, 2013, Monte Davis wrote:****
>
> "taking responsibility for both the good stuff and bad stuff you do" -- I'm
> down with that.
>
> It's what you mean from moment to moment by "you" that I can't get my head
> around. Sometimes the villainous agent or agency is science, sometimes it's
> technology (not the same, and much older than science), sometimes it's
> industrialization per se, sometimes it's industrial capitalism, sometimes
> it's the global scaling-up with population of our species' ecological
> footprint.
>
> Are there many connections -- both causal and corollary -- among all these?
> Yes.  Are they one and the same Big Bad Thing? No. I'm well aware that I'm
> doing that analytical/dissective approach you reject... but if yours is as
> coherent as holism gets, I think I'll pass.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On
> Behalf
> Of Joseph Tracy
> Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2013 2:20 PM
> To: P-list List
> Subject: Re: Pynchon knows this, I say. Sorta always known.
>
> Bullshit. I don't support, believe in or advocate Luddism though I don't
> particularly despise those with  true and sincere distrust of technology or
> tribal peoples who don't want to adopt the technologies and science of the
> modern world. I do advocate taking responsibility for both the good stuff
> and bad stuff you do.  I advocate technologies  and science that don't
> require theft and destruction. I advocate methods that are bio-spherically
> respectful and sustainable.
> On Jun 1, 2013, at 12:16 AM, David Morris wrote:
>
> > You essentially advocate Luddism.  I think Tea Party, stupid party,
> fearful and reactionary.  I really hope TRP isn't that dumb.
> >
> > Dr. Mengele looks a lot like TRP:
> > http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Mengele
> >
> > Maybe he feels the Dr's guilt.
> >
> > David Morris
> >
> > On Friday, May 31, 2013, Joseph Tracy wrote:
> >  But scientists and technologists are not merely adjuncts to bad
> political
> pressures, they sometimes lead the way into ethically abusive terrain, atom
> & then hydrogen bombs, nuclear power plants sited on unstable terrain(
> Fukushima) with approval of scientists, medical scientists came up with the
> things like the Tuskeegee syphilis experiments, US military experiments
> exposing people to radioactive materials, MK Ultra's experiments using
> drugs, sensory deprivation and torture on unwitting Canadians. The Nazi
> "medical" experiments were often as "scientific" as current experiments on
> rats.  The  pragmatic, for some more than
>
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