Pynchon knows this, I say. Sorta always known.

Sun Jun 2 12:19:19 CDT 2013

science has been and is
 an  essential element in holocaust, in genocide

(1)    Please clarify for me the role of science in encouraging or enabling
Turks to slaughter Armenians, Stalin to starve Ukrainians, Mao to starve
Chinese, Pol Pot to massacre Cambodians, Hutu to hack Tutsi, Efrain Rios
Montts troops to gun down Mayans, etc. Even w/r/t the Third Reichs
scientific racism, rumor has it that the pedigree of murderous European
Jew- and Gypsy- and Slav-hatred predates Hitler, predates Chamberlain and
Gobineau, and predates Darwin.   

the Sciences are defining the fundamental ways in which we experience the
world by defining the world as we experience it.

(2)    Please restate this in less tautological form.

Science can not abide
 the man who makes a house of nature with an
extension of his hand.

(3)  Please explain to the carpenter working next door as I type what, if
anything, this means. The poor ignorant fellow shows remarkably little
concern that the National Academy of Sciences, MIT, IBM, or the laws of
thermodynamics are bending their chill, pitiless gaze upon him.   

That will do for now. If you can clear up at least some of the sheer
incoherent nonsense you spout on this topic, we can proceed to whats merely
ignorant or mistaken.

Perhaps we can proceFrom: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org
[mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On Behalf Of alice wellintown
Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2013 11:34 AM
To: pynchon -l
Subject: Re: Pynchon knows this, I say. Sorta always known.

Science and thus the scientist is essential, is indispensable to the
villainous acts, the evil we have seen in the 20th and 21st century.  

Of course there are connections. But when we define the connections,
clearly, honestly, we see that science has been and is instrumental, has
been an essential element, in holocaust, in genocide, in war, in evil.
Science can't wash it hands of these crimes. While no one would attempt to
defend generals, businessmen, politicians, scientists take exception, make
excuses for the evil that science has been an integral part of, for the evil
deeds of scientists. While it would anger nearly everyone in the USA, were
they to learn that the government protected and defended, even supported, a
Nazi politician or general or businessman, the Nazi Scientists are given
special treatment. Von Braun is but one example. Why? Well, because the
Sciences are defining the fundamental ways in which we experience the world
by defining the world as we experience it. This is quite a powerful position
to extend to any group in a society. As the saying goes, power corrupts.
And, although science is quick to put on the cloak of theory, to shield
itself from claims to absolutes, for they know that power and absolutes
exposé them to claims of corruption, to claims that science is against life,
to accusations of gnostic death dreams (the causal and causation is embodied
in Blicero), it continues to divide nature from human endeavors and it
refuses to accept the limits of its reach. Science smashes atoms and makes
big data virtual tours of space for voyeurs, because it can not abide a
mystery, magic, or the man who makes a house of nature with an extension of
his hand. 

Today, I worship the hammer. 

On Sunday, June 2, 2013, Monte Davis wrote:

"taking responsibility for both the good stuff and bad stuff you do" -- I'm
down with that.

It's what you mean from moment to moment by "you" that I can't get my head
around. Sometimes the villainous agent or agency is science, sometimes it's
technology (not the same, and much older than science), sometimes it's
industrialization per se, sometimes it's industrial capitalism, sometimes
it's the global scaling-up with population of our species' ecological
footprint.

Are there many connections -- both causal and corollary -- among all these?
Yes.  Are they one and the same Big Bad Thing? No. I'm well aware that I'm
doing that analytical/dissective approach you reject... but if yours is as
coherent as holism gets, I think I'll pass.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On Behalf
Of Joseph Tracy
Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2013 2:20 PM
To: P-list List
Subject: Re: Pynchon knows this, I say. Sorta always known.

Bullshit. I don't support, believe in or advocate Luddism though I don't
particularly despise those with  true and sincere distrust of technology or
tribal peoples who don't want to adopt the technologies and science of the
modern world. I do advocate taking responsibility for both the good stuff
and bad stuff you do.  I advocate technologies  and science that don't
require theft and destruction. I advocate methods that are bio-spherically
respectful and sustainable.
On Jun 1, 2013, at 12:16 AM, David Morris wrote:

> You essentially advocate Luddism.  I think Tea Party, stupid party,
fearful and reactionary.  I really hope TRP isn't that dumb.
>
> Dr. Mengele looks a lot like TRP:
> http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Mengele
>
> Maybe he feels the Dr's guilt.
>
> David Morris
>
> On Friday, May 31, 2013, Joseph Tracy wrote:
>  But scientists and technologists are not merely adjuncts to bad political
pressures, they sometimes lead the way into ethically abusive terrain, atom
& then hydrogen bombs, nuclear power plants sited on unstable terrain(
Fukushima) with approval of scientists, medical scientists came up with the
things like the Tuskeegee syphilis experiments, US military experiments
exposing people to radioactive materials, MK Ultra's experiments using
drugs, sensory deprivation and torture on unwitting Canadians. The Nazi
"medical" experiments were often as "scientific" as current experiments on
rats.  The  pragmatic, for some more than others, philosophy  of "Scientific
advancement " demands that materials be mined and provided cheaply no matter
the human and eco costs. Science and the products generated by science
demand access to the materials and cannot ask for a free pass.
>
> Sometimes scientists provide the disease and then the cure as in DDT,
> HFCs ,phthalates, and Thalidimide. With global warming there may be no
> cure
>
>  You want to say these things are entirely political, but politicians do
not make dioxins or PCBs, do not figure out how to mine with mercury, are
not the inventors of fossil fuel technologies or new plastics and other
products  and techniques that poison the waters and soils.. The presumption
that all the questions and difficulties we face are neatly divisible in such
a way as to absolve  scientists and the  scientific method is not an idea to
which I will be genuflecting.  The science we inherit  has relied heavily on
analysis through dissection, dissolution, explosion and the reduction of all
things to the observable component parts. This has been a mindset with some
very dark consequences because life, and the only reality humans can
actually experience is interactive, conscious, interdependent and more than
the sum of parts or rules. There is no rule by which things desire to live,
and no methodology of science has ever produced a living reproductive
organism. Once again as in the original article there is a large gap between
what  science claims  to know and what can be demonstrated by experiment.
Scientific practice is not  able to be isolated as some pure and benign
pursuit. It has been heavily fueled throughout history by war and greed and
has itself fueled war, injustice and avarice.  Some of this comes out with
heart-rending intensity in Mason and Dixon, Gravity's Rainbow, and Against
the Day.. Equally so in The Metaphysical Club, Frankenstein, A Brave New
World.
>
>
> On May 30, 2013, at 10:44 PM, David Morris wrote:
>
> > Good point.
> > But your beef is entirely political.  It has nothing to do with science
or philosophy, except beyond their application in politics.
> > In the US 3rd parties are almost lays losers.  You seem to be advocating
a allegiance of scientist as a political voice.  And Amen!
> > But that goal isn't about science or philosophy.  It's about pragmatics.
> >
> > David Morris
> >
> > On Thursday, May 30, 2013, Joseph Tracy wrote:
> > No.  I

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