GR translation: This smile asks from him more grace than...

[Rich Clavey]

Makes perfect sense to me. No self-reference at all. And I do think this is what Pynchon was getting at.
Rich


--- On Mon, 3/4/13, David Payne <dpayne1912 at hotmail.com> wrote:

> From: David Payne <dpayne1912 at hotmail.com>
> Subject: RE: GR translation: This smile asks from him more grace than...
> To: "Pynchon-l" <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> Date: Monday, March 4, 2013, 11:14 PM
> 
> Depends on how you look at it. 
> 
> On the one hand, my definition was "faked/forced
> politeness". No ouroborus there.
> 
> On the other hand, "grace" appears exactly 564 times on this
> page in the OED online.
> 
> On the third hand, if you strip down the OED online
> definitions I quoted, "grace" only appears once, and I think
> that this single appearance points to the ironic use of the
> term I mentioned:
> 
> * I.1.b. In a weaker sense: Seemliness, becomingness,
> favourable or creditable aspect.
> 
> * I.2.c. A procedure, attitude, etc. adopted with a view to
> grace.
> 
> I think that I.2.c. is the right definition here, and I
> think that it doesn't circle back on itself; instead it
> points back to a different meaning of the term "grace"
> (i.e., the traditional sense of internal, inherent angelic
> qualities), suggesting fake/forced politeness.
> 
> If anyone else thinks I wrong, please speak up, because this
> seems like a key passage and I'm not at all sure that I
> correct in the way that I'm attempting to push forward
> Jochen's response.
> 
> ________________________________
> > Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2013 22:52:51 -0600 
> > Subject: RE: GR translation: This smile asks from him
> more grace than... 
> > From: irissiriustce at gmail.com
> 
> > To: dpayne1912 at hotmail.com
> 
> > CC: pynchon-l at waste.org
> 
> > 
> > 
> > Mr. Payne, surely yourdictionary quote used the word
> "grace" fivive 
> > fuckicking tim es to define Grace? 
> > 
> > This madness hass....toooooo....stop! 
> > 
> > you cant say I am bacause I am.. Within three words it
> circularizes on 
> > itself. 
> > 
> > On Mar 4, 2013 10:30 PM, "David Payne" 
> > <dpayne1912 at hotmail.com<mailto:dpayne1912 at hotmail.com>>
> wrote: 
> > 
> > That's from the same page as the "Proverbs for
> Paranoids, 3" -- and 
> > this seems like a key passage. 
> > 
> > It's a confusing sentence with all the "his/him"s. 
> > 
> > I take grace to mean faked/forced politeness here,
> which would be a bit 
> > ironic because "grace" is supposed to be a natural
> characteristic. I 
> > could be totally wrong about that because, as I said, I
> find the 
> > sentence confusing. 
> > 
> > Anyhow, I'm looking at the OED online definition for: 
> > 
> > grace, n., I. Pleasing quality, gracefulness ... 2.c. A
> procedure, 
> > attitude, etc. adopted with a view to grace. Obs. exc.
> in airs and 
> > graces, affectations of elegance of manners. 
> > 
> > Although this would seem to fit just as well: 
> > 
> > grace, n., I. Pleasing quality, gracefulness ... 1.b.
> In a weaker 
> > sense: Seemliness, becomingness, favourable or
> creditable aspect. 
> > Chiefly in a good grace ; hence a bad grace , an ill
> grace , an 
> > unbecoming appearance. Now somewhat rare (cf. cc). 
> > 
> > Don't take it from me, though! I'm just hoping to throw
> something out 
> > that someone with better understanding can react to. 
> > 
> > Thanks for posing these questions, Mike. I enjoy this
> close reading. 
> > 
> > ---------------------------------------- 
> > > Date: Mon, Mar 013 1::2::8 +100< 
> > > Subject: Re: GR translation: This smile asks from
> him more grace than... 
> > > From: jstremmel at gmail.com<mailto:jstremmel at gmail.com>
> 
> > > To: gravitys.rainbow.cn at gmail.com<mailto:gravitys.rainbow.cn at gmail.com>
> 
> > > CC: pynchon-l at waste.org<mailto:pynchon-l at waste.org>
> 
> > > 
> > > Gracefulness, I think. 
> > > 
> > > 013//// Mike Jing 
> > <gravitys.rainbow.cn at gmail.com<mailto:gravitys.rainbow.cn at gmail.com>>:
> 
> > > > P56..1--7 “Glad to hear it.” Slothrop is
> smiling. You’re on my list too, 
> > > > pal. This smile asks from him more grace than
> anything in his languid 
> > > > American life ever has, up till now. Grace he
> always imagined 
> > himself short 
> > > > on. But it’s working. He’s surprised, and
> so grateful that he 
> > almost starts 
> > > > crying then. The best part of all is not that
> Bounce appears fooled 
> > by the 
> > > > smile, but that Slothrop knows now that it
> will work for him again. . . . 
> > > > 
> > > > I find the word "grace" a little difficult to
> translate. what is the 
> > > > primary meaning here? 
> > > > 
> > 
>     
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