9-11 box cutters 11 september utility knives

[malignd at aol.com]

I may be misremembering, but didn't Popular Science or Popular Mechanics fully explain the collapse of WTC 7?


The boxcutter was just an example of one small thing I thought about that 
troubled me and an attempt to clarify to myself and anyone interested why.  The 
Other issues are quite large and have in no way been adequately addressed. Why 
did building seven, unstruck  except by minor debris and the fire that started, 
collapse. There has never been a steel frame building that collapsed even from 
intense fires leaving twisted framework.





-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
To: P-list List <pynchon-l at waste.org>
Sent: Tue, Nov 19, 2013 12:59 am
Subject: Re: 9-11 box cutters 11 september utility knives


The boxcutter was just an example of one small thing I thought about that 
troubled me and an attempt to clarify to myself and anyone interested why.  The 
Other issues are quite large and have in no way been adequately addressed. Why 
did building seven, unstruck  except by minor debris and the fire that started, 
collapse. There has never been a steel frame building that collapsed even from 
intense fires leaving twisted framework.  Whatever hit the pentagon followed a 
path that no pilot could accomplish in a747. This is the fucking Pentagpn and 
there are no photos or film of a non scheduled flight entering their airspace 
which has a large perimeter warning system. The hole in the Pentagon is too 
small. The 2 engines never turned up.   Thermite. Explain some of this or point 
to a detailed explanation that is not a denial based on the idea that it 
couldn't be done covertly..  Which leaves us with the explanation that a covert 
plan by the most powerful secretive forces could not do this but 12 alcohol 
abusing foreigners who showed no aptitude for flight and some of whom were on 
FBI lists could.

I have a real hard time with that.  As for perfect narratives, that is not the 
question. Credible physics concerning what is known is the question.  Did Allah 
suspend the conservation of mass?

Slate magazine is a pathetic joke.

On Nov 18, 2013, at 11:38 AM, Monte Davis wrote:

> RR> Life measured in such a detailed way will always bring to the surface much 
that doesnt make sense
> 
> I vehemently agree. What makes people believe that it must be possible to 
reconstruct a 100% accurate, closed, consistent narrative of any but the 
simplest historical moment? (And in "historical" I include last week.) 
> 
> In practice, the effort to do so *always* requires the selective -- or 
tendentious -- exclusion of some dots that someone else will always insist 
*must* be connected. See, e.g., Fred Kaplan on JFK assassination theories: 
> 
> http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history/2013/11/john_f_kennedy_conspiracy_theories_debunked_why_the_magic_bullet_and_grassy.html
>  
> 
>  
>    
> 
> 
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 9:22 AM, rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com> wrote:
> 9/11 in essence in my mind is a massive intelligence failure. conspiracies 
abound because people cant believe we didnt connect the dots or when we did we 
didnt share info or didn't deem it important enough. these bozos should have 
been caught but they weren't. 
> I dont understand this 'I question the official narrative'--what narrative? 
all those endless taps into each and every discrepancy or nuance of that day and 
the days leading up to it. Life measured in such a detailed way will always 
bring to the surface much that doesnt make sense or others imbued with a 
significance important to the observer. an horrific event heightens this to 
unimaginable levels.
> I also just have to laugh about talk of knives and cowards. sure it takes 
courage to do alot of things but maybe you will think twice when someone cuts a 
loved one's throat in your presence and then ask yourself wow that was 
courageous. is that how we are defining courage, now? guess that means William 
Calley and Paul Blobel had lots of courage, too.
> 
> y'all (as is Pynchon) reacting to the media response and have forgotten the 
event itself. 
> where the important questioning of narrative is Iraq not 9/11. you should 
focus your moral outrage there. 
> 
> rich
> 
> 
> On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Markekohut <markekohut at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Maybe only the ringleaders on each plane knew they were suicide missions. 
Yeah, self-righteous murderous self-redemptive courage....
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On Nov 17, 2013, at 12:17 PM, <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
> 
> > I worked as a construction electrician for 18 years, and a knife was one of 
our required hand tools. At first, I bought a three-blade pocket knife, but 
really only used one of the blades, so I switched to a single-blade. But this 
become dull quickly, and, on a co-worker's advice, I switched to a utility 
knife, and stayed with it for the rest of my 18-year career. The retractable 
blade cut through heavy 500MCM wire insulation like butter, and because spare 
blades could be stored in the handle (held together with a set-screw), I always 
had a sharp blade. Sure, there were always assholes who'd Crocodile Dundee me 
about my pathetic little knife - some of them had switchblades, or the actual 
knives they used to gut VC in Nam (they said). I'd joke that I didn't need a big 
phallic knife when I had my small clitoral triangular blade (always shocked some 
of the conservative Catholic family men with that kind of talk: "I thought you 
were a nice girl!").
> >
> > But it occurs to me, after reading Joseph's post, that this belittlement of 
the knife used (just a tiny box cutter) went hand in hand with the belittlement 
of the attackers collective manhood. These guys who commandeered giant planes 
and crashed them into buildings were "cowards." Bill Maher was actually fired 
from his Politically Incorrect show for saying that one thing these guys were 
not, was cowardly. Then there were the initial descriptions of Mohammed Atta as 
a wimpy little momma's boy who didn't/couldn't have girl friends. One really has 
to wonder why this sort of thing was dished out and happily swallowed by the 
gullible public. What part of our brash Western-influenced culture says that 
it's more honorable to be set-upon by a wimpy, cowardly girly-boy with a tiny 
knife? Isn't that called pussy-whipping. Why wouldn't we want to be brought down 
by the biggest, baddest bravest mo-fo out there? It's an odd public relations 
dilemma: if you refuse to imbue the enemy with any positive traits (strength, 
bravery, intelligence), then what are you left with? What 4th grader wants to 
admit they were beat up by a 1st grader?
> >
> > I agree with John Bailey that official stories aren't necessarily false by 
conspiracy, and that it was a tangle of competing interests - literary, 
political, psychological and economic that put together the Official Story. 
Actually, I found the Official Story of the first attack on the trade center 
much more troubling. It took them days to recover the four bodies from the 
wreckage, yet the very first thing they found was the rental-van's license, 
lying atop the wreckage like a gift card, which led them immediately to the 
perpetrators. Sounded a little too much like fore-knowledge in that case. Give 
us this day our daily conspiracy, I guess.
> >
> > Laura
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
> >
> >>
> >> I will offer an alternate phrase that despite its seeming insignificance 
has troubled me. Box cutters. Before 11 september  I rarely heard  utility 
knives refereed to as box cutters and thought of that phrase as a kind of term 
used by people who don't regularly use hand tools and got a plastic knife to 
break down shipping boxes from Office Depot.. So I have wondered why have I 
never once heard them called what I and anyone I know who actually regularly 
uses these knives for utilitarian purposes calls them- which is utility knives. 
I have asked about 4-5 people what they think of when they hear the phrase box 
cutter and people describe either a standard utility knife or a small  plastic 
handled utility knife with break away blades, or a fold out steel knife. If you 
google the phrase those are the things you get. Hardware stores have always 
called them utility knives, but they are now sold on the internet as box cutters 
too.
> >>
> >> You don't kill passengers and flight attendants , then walk to the front of 
a plane  open the cockpit door and kill a pilot and copilot with a 1/2 inch 
break-away blade.  A standard utility knife which is called by some a box-cutter 
is a powerful, sharp, strong and potentially deadly tool, (much more that  a 
swiss army knife which I always kept in my backpack  when traveling before 
9-11), because it has a large grip and close to 2 inches of razor sharp steel 
blade.
> >>
> >> So as far as I can tell the use of the term box -cutter originated from 
calls of a stewardess but she and others also said knives. What bothers me is 
the standardization of the description of weapons which aren't really known in 
detail to the term box-cutters.  It feels indicative of mindless repetition 
rather than a journalistic curiosity and  an attempt to get a real, detailed and 
plausible picture of one of the most disturbing events in many decades.
> >>
> >> This is a tiny detail in a big picture that Is still very disputed and 
unclear. Does P really accept the mainstream account? Why does P throw in the 
rooftop story so weirdly reminiscent of Kennedy's assassination or the 
underground goings on at Montauk  if he does not give some credence to alternate 
explanations? Why does everyone in BE chump-out and quit their research if not 
sheer dread about very powerful and unscrupulous forces? What is the role of the 
murder in the story? Is it referring to something real?
> >>
> >> Because something real changed on 11 September 2001. We all know that.  But 
what actually happened?
> >>
> >> Why was Kissinger, the master of murderous coups and secret bombings, 
Bush's first choice for the inquiry.  Why did Building 7 collapse? Where was the 
Air Force? Is there really thermite recovered from the site? Where are the 
engines of the plane that hit the Pentagon?Here is a huge event which remains 
shrouded in real questions , but  which to look at skeptically is journalistic 
and media death. Yet many loved ones of victims are profoundly dissatisfied with 
the official inquiry. Why should we trust known liars and news organizations 
which reported incredibly spurious crap about WMD's to care deeply enough to 
truly answer the questions of the many sincere and personally involved, 
knowledgeable and credible skeptics including victims and first responders. Why 
not make the utmost effort to put to rest conspiracy theories that can only lead 
to bitterness and estrangement. And since when did America start thinking the 
thing to do after apprehending the  unarmed subject of a world-wide manhunt and 
center of a terrorist conspiracy,  is to shoot him and throw his  body into the 
Mediterranean?
> >>
> >> Our lives go on.  We go to whatever we call work, live with friends and 
family, have our own worries and dreams. But now it is one war after another and 
we  are told it is criminal to question  the "right " of our government to 
monitor everyone's communication even though they have no interest in hearing 
what we say to them openly. The constitution evaporates as quickly under one 
party as the other and the reason is  always 9-11, the biggest emergency call in 
human history just keeps ringing away  our taxes and rights..   We want to go 
back to normal, back to the Jack Benny story, back to home made take-out and Ben 
and Jerrys.  Am I so alone  in being troubled by these nagging questions?  I too 
am a neighbor of those killed.
> >>
> >> I am not convinced as a truther but am even less convinced by the official 
story.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -
> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
> >
> > -
> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
> -
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> 
> 

-
Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l

 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://waste.org/pipermail/pynchon-l/attachments/20131119/a1cd0f24/attachment.html>