9-11 box cutters 11 september utility knives

[Joseph Tracy]

Well the things I am talking about are not mystically unknowable, they are just difficult to establish. That is how every investigation of a tough crime  begins. Sometimes there is no crime to solve and sometimes there is . Sometimes the wrong person or group gets the blame and sometimes the culprits are caught. Sometimes the planner of the crime walks and others do time etc. The Chile case was very hard to prove and some see it as unproved as to CIA Kissinger involvement or other aspects. The fact that some criminal conspiracies are exposed doesn't mean that that is inevitable does it?   I would say part of the reason that some cases are exposed is the doggedness of those who seek the truth, often because they have a stake in the issue. Are you really saying that everyone who commits crime gets caught. 

Do you think the CIA torturers of Abu Graibh are going to eventually be punished? Do you think there was no fraud of a criminal nature at Morgan Stanley, that their defrauding was some special class of fraud that has no perpetrator or requires no human accountability, like jail time?  Justice is not automatic, not inherent, not inherited and not "revealed". People pay a price for the truth. People die for the truth.  People kill to keep it hidden.  You know that, and so does everyone here.  

If you wish to say you have looked at enough evidence to dismiss any idea of  deception  or that the truthers have not made a case sufficient to persuade you, simply say so. If you have information you think I should consider, point me to it.  But I cannot accept that there is something about 9-11 that makes it mystically unknowable more than any other crime. Nor do I think that deceptions are inevitably revealed through mistakes.  Sometimes people get away with murder, fraud, theft and every other sociopathic act and retire "comfortably".  The Reich was not caught until it was far too late. Stalin was never stopped. He just wore out and died.

On Nov 26, 2013, at 7:27 PM, David Morris wrote:

> All of the things on the list below involve deceptions that were revealed. None were mystically unknowable.  Each below came to light almost inevitably by the inherent inability of people to not fuck up in their deceits somewhere along the way.  But some conspiracies are forever unknowable because the knowable wont be enough for some, ever.
> 
> On Tuesday, November 26, 2013, Joseph Tracy wrote:
> , but I look at what was done secretly in the 3rd reich, I look at Vietnam and Iraq , I look at Chile or Greece or Venezuela or Brazil. I see the long trail of of imperial madness and capitalist madness and colonial madness and organized crime and I think it wise to be skeptical.
> 
> On Nov 26, 2013, at 12:54 PM, Mark Kohut wrote:
> 
> > You are also wrong in your overgeneralized characterization of the plist members who differ with you and how they differ.  I, for one, resent it and have just deleted a longer post.
> >
> > "reactionary" arguments?.....a politicization akin to Fox News'...
> >
> > I
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Nov 25, 2013, at 3:32 AM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
> >
> > > To believe that a group who fabricated lies to murder over half a million Iraqis  and in so doing sacrificed over 5000 soldiers and left many thousands wounded all in order to seize control of their oil would balk at killing some Americans to get what they want is to think that Americans are different than humans through most of history.
> > >
> > > This whole proposition is nothing more than the idea that anyone who thinks airplane engines  and wings disappear when they hit buildings is uncritical. Or that anyone who dares to question a media and political leadership notorious for lying is uncritical.
> > >
> > > The official inquiriies into 9-11 i are not, as suggested  in the article, unanimous,  in fact a commission chairman resigned in protest that and there are several instances where whistleblowers like Colleen Rowley and Sibel Edmonds were punished and those they exposed were promoted. That kind of example is bound to  skew the results.
> > >
> > > It is not as though we live in a time of outstanding courage in challenging the lies of authoritarian systems. This is clear from  thousands of NSA people who dared not speak out like Snowden did .
> > >
> > > The language of "these people" and "the rest of us" is the language of demagoguery .  His argument  is straw man and nothing but straw man.
> > >
> > > I think your own arguments so far are lazy and have nothing to do with the substantive facts. It may be very possible that you haven't really looked at the evidence presented by the truthers to even know what you are refuting. I see no evidence that you have. It is understandable. One only has so much time and I find this stuff as tedious as anyone, but I am curious and can't dismiss so easily the facts which disagree with the commission narrative.
> > >
> > > So far only one person on the list has referred me to articles of the nature I requested, articles that are  fact based examinations of truther concerns. That was Mike Bailey. Rather I get  reactionary put-downs based on  false or convenient assumptions about my motives( I don't by any means believe in some all powerful elite).
> > > So even though Pynchon, in BE does suggest some sinister possibilities along the lines of insider foreknowledge,  almost no one on the p-list wants to even think about, hear about, or talk about it in anything but a very reactionary  and fundamentally ad hominem way.
> > > On Nov 24, 2013, at 9:27 AM, Markekohut wrote:
> > >
> > >> A post as clearly thorough as Orwell would want. Thanks.
> > >>
> > >> Sent from my iPad
> > >>
> > > > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
> 
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> Pynch

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Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l