Fwd: This week in pointless trivia.

[Paul Mackin]

Forwarded conversation
Subject: Re: This week in pointless trivia.
------------------------

From: *Bekah* <bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>
Date: Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 11:03 AM
To: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>


Yes,  it probably plays into some male fantasy  -  I always went for the
scientists and I can see a similarity in that attraction because if he is
smarter than I am,   I intuitively feel he can protect or help me and the
babies stay safe.  (?)

Between the outbreak of WWII and Vietnam men in uniform were quite popular.
  There were guys all over San Francisco out for a good time wearing their
military uniforms because it got points.   During the Vietnam era that so
totally changed that even guys going home to Kansas on leave kept their
uniform out of sight.  I remember most of this - not the WWII stuff - but
from pre-Korea on.   I think in reading Pynchon we have to be careful of
the time frame.

GR and V.  for instance,  take place during pro-uniform era - and Slothrop
rescues Katje
IV,  with some exceptions,  has the woman/women going for the money - (same
reasons as military and science)
AtD has Lake going for the man with the gun.
M&D  Does Rebekah go for the scientist?
Vineland -  Frenesi gets in trouble with her desire for Brock's body,  but
later she knows intuitively that Brock can protect her / hide her?
CoL49 -  I don't believe Oedipa ever fell in love with anyone - she has
Mucho at home.
BE -  the only thing I can think is that there is some sub-conscious,
intuitive thing in her (as "everywoman") which responds to power whether it
be brute or smarts or money  - in this case I think it's the "brute" part.

Could Frenesi and Maxine be little female fascists at heart?   I can see it
in Maxine - possibly - she was an investigator type.  And perhaps Frenesi
was simply and  primarily a sexual being.

Bekah
just blabbing -

On Oct 8, 2013, at 6:23 AM, Laura Kelber <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:

> I've never understood the attraction either, Bekah, and I'm guessing that
whatever the intellectual underpinnings,  this trope appeals to some sort
of male fantasy- I don't know -  "if I were a fascist, I could get any
chick I wanted, through coercion and/or attraction."? And the fantasy
demands the pretense that it's really a female fantasy. Like the one where
there's supposedly all these hot lesbian couples who are dying for a 3-way
with a man. Never encountered any lesbians in real life who had that
fantasy either.
>
> Laura
>
> On Oct 8, 2013, at 8:42 AM, Bekah<bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> Or, perhaps,  the love-hate relationship between the sexes.  Or perhaps
some really basic instinct in women to go for the man they sense will best
protect them physically -   strong with a gun, militaristic, safe - "law
and order" type protection.
>>
>> Bekah
>> never did understand the attraction but who knows -
>>
>> On Oct 8, 2013, at 3:45 AM, Kai Frederik Lorentzen <lorentzen at hotmail.de>
wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> As mentioned before, I think that this has to do with the catholic
element in Pynchon. The lefty woman fucking the fascist is Pynchon's
standard illustration of original sin (aka inherent vice). The sexism in
this is - think Genesis 3 - a very traditional one. Could also imagine that
Sylvia Plath' famous line "Every woman adores a Fascist" (from "Daddy") is
another influence here.
>>>
>>> On 06.10.2013 22:33, kelber at mindspring.com wrote:
>>>> I’m also getting pretty pissed off with Pynchon (who, otherwise, I
consider one of the greatest authors of all time) for this
Frenesi/Lake/Maxine/Tallis (and if the latter isn’t specifically fingered
as Jewish, then why did he give her a Jewish name?)
lefty-woman-who-fucks-fascists trope. Where does this come from? Where are
the examples, and why does he keep portraying the daughters of the left
this way? And why all the shopping and pole-dancing crap. Is this supposed
to convince us that Pynchon understands women? It’s insulting and sexist.
Enough already!
>>>
>>> -
>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>
> -
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l

-
Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l

----------
From: *Paul Mackin* <mackin.paul at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 12:09 PM
To: Bekah <bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>


The "women who choose wrong men" thing isn't particularly a male fantasy,
is it?

I've known and know of numerous women who succumb to to and often
remain with men who mistreat them with various degrees of grossness.


It doesn't seem to necessarily be economic.  It's often the woman who
provides the financial support.

Am I all wet?'

P
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