This week in pointless trivia.

[Paul Mackin]

Thanks, Bekah--it's a complex situation.

P

On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 12:13 PM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Forwarded conversation
>
> Subject: Re: This week in pointless trivia.
> ------------------------
>
> From: Bekah <bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>
> Date: Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 11:03 AM
> To: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>
>
> Yes,  it probably plays into some male fantasy  -  I always went for the
> scientists and I can see a similarity in that attraction because if he is
> smarter than I am,   I intuitively feel he can protect or help me and the
> babies stay safe.  (?)
>
> Between the outbreak of WWII and Vietnam men in uniform were quite popular.
> There were guys all over San Francisco out for a good time wearing their
> military uniforms because it got points.   During the Vietnam era that so
> totally changed that even guys going home to Kansas on leave kept their
> uniform out of sight.  I remember most of this - not the WWII stuff - but
> from pre-Korea on.   I think in reading Pynchon we have to be careful of the
> time frame.
>
> GR and V.  for instance,  take place during pro-uniform era - and Slothrop
> rescues Katje
> IV,  with some exceptions,  has the woman/women going for the money - (same
> reasons as military and science)
> AtD has Lake going for the man with the gun.
> M&D  Does Rebekah go for the scientist?
> Vineland -  Frenesi gets in trouble with her desire for Brock's body,  but
> later she knows intuitively that Brock can protect her / hide her?
> CoL49 -  I don't believe Oedipa ever fell in love with anyone - she has
> Mucho at home.
> BE -  the only thing I can think is that there is some sub-conscious,
> intuitive thing in her (as "everywoman") which responds to power whether it
> be brute or smarts or money  - in this case I think it's the "brute" part.
>
> Could Frenesi and Maxine be little female fascists at heart?   I can see it
> in Maxine - possibly - she was an investigator type.  And perhaps Frenesi
> was simply and  primarily a sexual being.
>
> Bekah
> just blabbing -
>
> On Oct 8, 2013, at 6:23 AM, Laura Kelber <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>> I've never understood the attraction either, Bekah, and I'm guessing that
>> whatever the intellectual underpinnings,  this trope appeals to some sort of
>> male fantasy- I don't know -  "if I were a fascist, I could get any chick I
>> wanted, through coercion and/or attraction."? And the fantasy demands the
>> pretense that it's really a female fantasy. Like the one where there's
>> supposedly all these hot lesbian couples who are dying for a 3-way with a
>> man. Never encountered any lesbians in real life who had that fantasy
>> either.
>>
>> Laura
>>
>> On Oct 8, 2013, at 8:42 AM, Bekah<bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Or, perhaps,  the love-hate relationship between the sexes.  Or perhaps
>>> some really basic instinct in women to go for the man they sense will best
>>> protect them physically -   strong with a gun, militaristic, safe - "law and
>>> order" type protection.
>>>
>>> Bekah
>>> never did understand the attraction but who knows -
>>>
>>> On Oct 8, 2013, at 3:45 AM, Kai Frederik Lorentzen <lorentzen at hotmail.de>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> As mentioned before, I think that this has to do with the catholic
>>>> element in Pynchon. The lefty woman fucking the fascist is Pynchon's
>>>> standard illustration of original sin (aka inherent vice). The sexism in
>>>> this is - think Genesis 3 - a very traditional one. Could also imagine that
>>>> Sylvia Plath' famous line "Every woman adores a Fascist" (from "Daddy") is
>>>> another influence here.
>>>>
>>>> On 06.10.2013 22:33, kelber at mindspring.com wrote:
>>>>> I’m also getting pretty pissed off with Pynchon (who, otherwise, I
>>>>> consider one of the greatest authors of all time) for this
>>>>> Frenesi/Lake/Maxine/Tallis (and if the latter isn’t specifically fingered as
>>>>> Jewish, then why did he give her a Jewish name?)
>>>>> lefty-woman-who-fucks-fascists trope. Where does this come from? Where are
>>>>> the examples, and why does he keep portraying the daughters of the left this
>>>>> way? And why all the shopping and pole-dancing crap. Is this supposed to
>>>>> convince us that Pynchon understands women? It’s insulting and sexist.
>>>>> Enough already!
>>>>
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>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>>
>> -
>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>
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> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
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> ----------
> From: Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 12:09 PM
> To: Bekah <bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net>
>
>
> The "women who choose wrong men" thing isn't particularly a male fantasy, is
> it?
>
> I've known and know of numerous women who succumb to to and often
> remain with men who mistreat them with various degrees of grossness.
>
>
> It doesn't seem to necessarily be economic.  It's often the woman who
> provides the financial support.
>
> Am I all wet?'
>
> P
>
>
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Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l