Anderson, Master, IV,

[rich]

that include the guys who didnt use their weapons and are dead? but kidding
aside, I think the the PTSD factor in WW2 in particular was downplayed and
the crazed Vietnam vet became an overused cultural cliche. I think the
nature of the war in Vietnam which somewhat paralled only some of the
battles in the Pacific re-enforced the savagery. I dont necessarily think
they got better killers in Vietnam

rich

On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 2:39 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:

>
>  After WW 2 the US military did a study and found that many soldiers(
> something like 70%) never were able to use their weapons in combat due to
> the natural aversion to taking human life. ( This seems to me a deeply
> encouraging counter argument to the war comes from human nature idea)They
> changed their training for Vietnam and got better killers but more PTSD.  (
> any refinements/revisions of the historic part of this are welcome)
>   What is perhaps a weird new element of the formation of early beliefs is
> the role of television,  peer group schooling, news media as arbiters of
> social reality and values.  Pynchon, it seems to me, is particularly
> focused on this early formative process.
>
>  Some beliefs deserve  revision, and so for me the question is about the
> the means of revision. Overwhelming force is not what I think of when I
> think of positive inner transitions.
>
> > Brains can be seriously fucked, and that happens most when an
> overwhelming force is used to break down a belief, not to instill one.
> Deprogramming is the real enemy.
> >
> > David Morris
> >
> > On Wednesday, December 3, 2014, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
> > According to the article suggested by T Eckhart The original physician
> on the scene at the Jonestown massacre Chief Guyanese physician  Dr.
> MooToo, trained in Vienna and London claimed that at least 700 of the
> victims were murdered- injected in the back of their shoulder with poison.
> The first report of mass suicide came from the CIA and the story of mass
> suicide was shaped by a psychiatrist named Sukhdeo.
> >
> > " It is true, of course, that not every psychiatrist agreed with Dr.
> Sukhdeo's analysis.  Dr. Stephen P. Hersh,  then assistant director of the
> National Institutes of Mental Health (NIMH), commented that "The charges of
> brainwashing are clearly exaggerated.  The concept of  'thought control' by
> cult leaders is elusive, difficult to define and even more difficult to
> prove.  Because cult converts adopt beliefs that seem bizarre to their
> families and friends, it does not follow that their choices are being
> dictated by cult leaders." [37]
> >
> > On Dec 2, 2014, at 10:15 PM, David Morris wrote:
> >
> > > I object to the segment in The Master when Freddie is being
> brainwashed. It doesn't ring true.  Brainwashing is mostly a myth used as a
> cudgel to legitimized anti-brainwashing, which DOES exist. True converts
> are not coerced.
> >
> > All this to say that while I deeply agree with your skepticism about the
> concept of brainwashing, brains can be seriously fucked with as this nation
> should know since by the time of shock and awe a poll showed 70% of
> Americans believed Saddam to be part of the  9/11plot.
> > >
> > > David Morris
> > >
> > > On Monday, December 1, 2014, Thomas Eckhardt <
> thomas.eckhardt at uni-bonn.de> wrote:
> > > Am 01.12.2014 18:00, schrieb Joseph Tracy:
> > >
> > > Just to push the
> > > conversation a bit- is it such a stretch to consider CIA/Political
> > > actions and media messages in Vietnam, Cambodia, Chile, Argentina,
> > > El Salvador...  as a kind of cultic message of liberation, in this
> > > case through mass violence.
> > >
> > > Hmmm, reminds me of the strange coincidence that Jim Jones, of Peoples
> Temple and Kool-Aid fame, and Dan Mitrione, a man who used to torture
> beggars to death for training purposes, were childhood friends.
> > >
> > > http://jimhougan.com/JimJones2.html
> > >
> > > Thomas
> > >
> > > -
> > > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
> >
> > -
> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>
> -
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>
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