What happens to a conspiracy revealed?
malignd at aol.com
malignd at aol.com
Thu Mar 13 16:58:02 CDT 2014
Give an example. We would go into, say, Mexico, and annex some portion of it that is English speaking?
The Russian actions in the Crimea are exactly what the US would do in
similar circumstances.
-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
To: P-list List <pynchon-l at waste.org>
Sent: Thu, Mar 13, 2014 3:37 pm
Subject: Re: What happens to a conspiracy revealed?
Snyder shows one side of the picture and i really believe it is true to many
Ukrainians. Yanukovich was a greedy asshole. But there were also killings of
police, hardcore anti-semitism, the overthrow of an elected government and an
unwillingness to negotiate a transition despite the closeness of the next
elections. When you pursue the overthrow of a government, even one elected by
majority vote, there is no place including the US where you will not find
violent resistance by the authorities. I have tried to listen to all sides of a
story in a place that I don't know much about. What I have a hard time with is
the US choosing a less than wildly popular central banker to be the "interim
prime minister" . And I am skeptical that it was a truly democratic process to
endorse him. I hope for the best for a real revolution that makes a better
society. The Russian actions in the Crimea are exactly what the US would do in
similar circumstances. They have been careful to avoid unneeded violence. I
think accepting this division is realistic and relatively harmless. I predict
it will stand with the approval of the Crimean majority and be inconsequential.
I don't think Ukraine will have solved its problems by joining the EU if they do
so. Happy to be wrong about that.
As to his last question the US was as diverse a population as anywhere on the
planet at the time of the revolution though it was clearly led by millionaire
merchants, land speculators etc. the soldiers were quite diverse as was the case
in South American revolutions. For me the question is more whether the
revolutionaries represent a consensus of Ukrainians. I simply don't know and
don't feel much effort has been made to really answer that question in an open
honest way.
On Mar 13, 2014, at 1:38 PM, rich wrote:
> passion is one thing. Here's Timothy Snyder on the uprising in Ukraine
>
> http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/mar/01/ukraine-haze-propaganda/
>
> 'In December the crowds grew larger. By the end of the year, millions of
people had taken part in protests, all over the country. Journalists were
beaten. Individual activists were abducted. Some of them were tortured. Dozens
disappeared and have not yet been found. As the New Year began the protests
broadened. Muslims from southern Ukraine marched in large numbers.
Representatives of the large Kiev Jewish community were prominently represented.
Some of the most important organizers were Jews. The telephone hotline that
people called to seek missing relatives was established by gay activists (people
who have experience with hotlines). Some of the hospital guards who tried to
stop the police from abducting the wounded were young feminists. '
>
> 'Who was killed? Dozens of people, in all about a hundred, most of them young
men. Bohdan Solchanyk was a young lecturer at the Ukrainian Catholic University,
a Ukrainian speaker from western Ukraine. He was shot and killed. Yevhen Kotlyov
was an environmentalist from Kharkiv, a Russian speaker from eastern Ukraine. He
was shot and killed. One of the people killed was a Russian citizen; a number of
Russians had come to fight—most of them anarchists who had come to aid their
Ukrainian anarchist comrades. At least two of those killed by the regime, and
perhaps more, were Jews. One of those “Afghans,” Ukrainian veterans of the Red
Army’s war in Afghanistan, was Jewish: Alexander Scherbatyuk. He was shot and
killed by a sniper. Another of those killed was a Pole, a member of Ukraine’s
Polish minority.
>
> Has it ever before happened that people associated with Ukrainian, Russian,
Belarusian, Armenian, Polish, and Jewish culture have died in a revolution that
was started by a Muslim? Can we who pride ourselves in our diversity and
tolerance think of anything remotely similar in our own histories?'
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 1:26 PM, <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
> For the record, I appreciate both the tone and content of Joseph's post.
Passionate and coherent, without a hint of snarkiness.
>
> Laura
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
> >Sent: Mar 13, 2014 12:36 PM
> >To: P-list List <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> >Subject: Re: What happens to a conspiracy revealed?
> >
> >OK, I may be an outawork preacher, but I got no Kingdom, no ism, nothin but
snakes and holy ghosts and pictures in slow light.
> >On Mar 13, 2014, at 1:36 AM, David Morris wrote:
> >
> >> And I don't disagree with your indictment. But you are such a preacher! You
need a side kick. A mcGuffin.
> >>
> >> On Thursday, March 13, 2014, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> You really sound like a Southern snake handler. With lots of fire! Almost
to get me a raisening a cross! Zee-Haw!
> >>
> >> On Wednesday, March 12, 2014, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
> >> Just wrong. The effect of our version of capitalism has not distributed but
concentrated wealth. Actually corporate capitalism does not know what wealth
really is, assuming it is raw power in the form of dollars which mostly
represents burnable fuel. The fuel is running out, and being turned into acidic
oceans and carbon saturated atmosphere which will raise sea levels and is
producing catastrophic climate changes. And there is no magic replacement on
the horizon. Rather there is a global infrastructure utterly dependent on a
limited a resource.This is not wealth but an insane and planless disruption of a
planetary ecosystem as though planets were some kind of automatic teller with an
infinite supply of capital goods.
> >> Machiavelli was a guide to criminal authoritarianism. Yes it works for a
few for a while, but our empire is no more benign than any other, Capitalism is
out of ideas and is a boorish idiot eating everything in sight , starting with
the weak. The current market system will crash. There is simply too much
imaginary money chasing too little of real value.
> >> As far as your orthodoxy on Ukraine, I don't buy it. I am no fan of Putin
but he has done better in terms of GDP and raised standard of living over his
time in office than the western states. I believe the current stand off will
stand despite Kerry's hypocritical bombast and Crimea will be better off in
future days than Ukraine.
> >> On Mar 12, 2014, at 5:29 PM, alice malice wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> > This idea usually goes along with the one that connects the MIC to the
Oil industry than argues that US exploits in the region have only made wealthy,
the powerful and wealthy, more powerful, the powerful. But the US and it allies
have also raised the living standards of ordinary people. Not by trickle down,
but by dominating weaker nations, colonization...so on...and own,
whatever....if the US did not, and if the US does not continue to, kill, and
meddle...push Russia on Ukraine...etc...support Israel....it's GDP, and the GDPs
of other nations, nations like Canada, Australia, Norway, Japan....yes, those
nice clean countries that never get blood on their safe and comfortable lives...
will suffer. Most people believe this and that is why they put up with the
Machiavellian US.
> >> >
> >> > Somebody has got to be the Empire.
> >> >
> >> > On Wednesday, March 12, 2014, Michael Bailey <mikebailey at gmx.us> wrote:
> >> > Rich wrote "how would you suggest we deal with these people"
> >> >
> >> > How about by not making their lives subject to a "great game", not
deposing their elected governments and not stealing their oil?
> >> >
> >> > Then if they unprovoked attack us, well! We shall be ready, and give them
*such* a thumping! &
> >> > "live life, every golden minute of it!" - Pynchon-l /
http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
> >>
> >> -
> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> >
> >-
> >Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>
> -
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
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