What happens to a conspiracy revealed?

[alice malice]

Other than Guantanamo, the net effect is not the same. And, the fact that
the US Empire is a wealth empire, that is, from the end of WWII, when the
US assumed the role of Empire, a position, contrary to decline and collapse
theories, and despite the Bush administrations response to 9-11, that it
has a firmer grip on now, makes it different from Russia, from
Israel...etc. it's not just a matter of style. Grabbing land in the 21st
century is counterproductive. War is also counterproductive. Both weaken
the wealth empire.

On Thursday, March 13, 2014, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:

>  Guantanamo where we took part of the island, Iraq where we felt our
> national interests threatened ( probably by the possibility of movement to
> another currency for trading oil), Iran where we have planted military
> bases on every border. Our style is different but the net effect is the
> same . For years we had a thing called the Monroe doctrine which is a
> version of the same thing.  Do we endorse rigged Mexican elections for
> political reasons? Lots of Mexicans think so.  Under Reagan The US aided
> Iraq in its attempt to seize territory from Iran giving them chemical
> weapons and other weapons. If they had succeeded, would the US have then
> insisted they return the land because it was illegal under the UN charter?
>  We continue to aid Israel despite violation of UN and US official
> opposition to the occupation of the west Bank.
>   Look, I think Putin violated agreements with Ukraine in seizing Crimea
> but when you overthrow a government, can you expect agreements that were
> made under that government to stand what? What are the rules for armed
> takeovers as far as ok for some , not for others. We also have violated
> many agreements in our wars.  The idea that the US plays by the rules is
> clearly unsupportable.
>
> I suppose if the Ukrainians of bot regions play their cards right they can
> get a kind of bidding war going for their ideological allegiance.
> On Mar 13, 2014, at 5:58 PM, malignd at aol.com wrote:
>
> > Give an example.  We would go into, say, Mexico, and annex some portion
> of it that is English speaking?
> > The Russian actions in the Crimea are exactly what the US would do in
> > similar circumstances.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
> > To: P-list List <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> > Sent: Thu, Mar 13, 2014 3:37 pm
> > Subject: Re: What happens to a conspiracy revealed?
> >
> > Snyder shows one side of the picture and i really believe it is true to
> many
> > Ukrainians. Yanukovich was a greedy asshole.  But there were also
> killings of
> > police, hardcore anti-semitism, the overthrow of an elected government
> and an
> > unwillingness to negotiate a transition despite the closeness of the next
> > elections. When you pursue the overthrow of a government, even one
> elected by
> > majority vote, there is no place including the US where you will not find
> > violent resistance by the authorities.  I have tried to listen to all
> sides of a
> > story in a place that I don't know much about. What I have a hard time
> with is
> > the US choosing a less than wildly popular central banker to be the
> "interim
> > prime minister" . And I am skeptical that it was a truly democratic
> process  to
> > endorse him. I hope for the best for a real revolution that makes a
> better
> > society.  The Russian actions in the Crimea are exactly what the US
> would do in
> > similar circumstances. They have been careful to avoid unneeded
> violence.  I
> > think accepting this division is realistic and relatively harmless.  I
> predict
> > it will stand with the approval of the Crimean majority and be
> inconsequential.
> > I don't think Ukraine will have solved its problems by joining the EU if
> they do
> > so. Happy to be wrong about that.
> >
> > As to his last question the US was as diverse a population as anywhere
> on the
> > planet at the time of the revolution though it was clearly led by
> millionaire
> > merchants, land speculators etc. the soldiers were quite diverse as was
> the case
> > in South American revolutions.  For me the question is more whether the
> > revolutionaries represent a consensus of Ukrainians. I simply don't know
> and
> > don't feel much effort has been made to really answer that question in
> an open
> > honest way.
> >
> >
> > On Mar 13, 2014, at 1:38 PM, rich wrote:
> >
> > > passion is one thing. Here's Timothy Snyder on the uprising in Ukraine
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/mar/01/ukraine-haze-propaganda/
> >
> > >
> > > 'In December the crowds grew larger. By the end of the year, millions
> of
> > people had taken part in protests, all over the country. Journalists
>  were
> > beaten. Individual activists were abducted. Some of them were tortured.
> Dozens
> > disappeared and have not yet been found. As the New Year began the
> protests
> > broadened. Muslims from southern Ukraine marched in large numbers.
> > Representatives of the large Kiev Jewish community were prominently
> represented.
> > Some of the most important organizers were Jews. The telephone hotline
> that
> > people called to seek missing relatives was established by gay activists
> (people
> > who have experience with hotlines). Some of the hospital guards who
> tried to
> > stop the police from abducting the wounded were young feminists. '
> > >
> > > 'Who was killed? Dozens of people, in all about a hundred, most of
> them young
> > men. Bohdan Solchanyk was a young lecturer at the Ukrainian Catholic
> University,
> > a Ukrainian speaker from western Ukraine. He was shot and killed. Yevhen
> Kotlyov
> > was an environmentalist from Kharkiv, a Russian speaker from eastern
> Ukraine. He
> > was shot and killed. One of the people killed was a Russian citizen; a
> number of
> > Russians had come to fight--most of them anarchists who had come to aid
> their
> > Ukrainian anarchist comrades. At least two of those killed by the
> regime, and
> > perhaps more, were Jews. One of those "Afghans," Ukrainian veterans of
> the Red
> > Army's war in Afghanistan, was Jewish: Alexander Scherbatyuk. He was
> shot and
> > killed by a sniper. Another of those killed was a Pole, a me
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