What happens to a conspiracy revealed?

Thu Mar 13 20:57:41 CDT 2014

 Guantanamo where we took part of the island, Iraq where we felt our national interests threatened ( probably by the possibility of movement to another currency for trading oil), Iran where we have planted military bases on every border. Our style is different but the net effect is the same . For years we had a thing called the Monroe doctrine which is a version of the same thing.  Do we endorse rigged Mexican elections for political reasons? Lots of Mexicans think so.  Under Reagan The US aided Iraq in its attempt to seize territory from Iran giving them chemical weapons and other weapons. If they had succeeded, would the US have then insisted they return the land because it was illegal under the UN charter?  We continue to aid Israel despite violation of UN and US official opposition to the occupation of the west Bank. 
  Look, I think Putin violated agreements with Ukraine in seizing Crimea but when you overthrow a government, can you expect agreements that were made under that government to stand what? What are the rules for armed takeovers as far as ok for some , not for others. We also have violated many agreements in our wars.  The idea that the US plays by the rules is clearly unsupportable.  

I suppose if the Ukrainians of bot regions play their cards right they can get a kind of bidding war going for their ideological allegiance. 
On Mar 13, 2014, at 5:58 PM, malignd at aol.com wrote:

> Give an example.  We would go into, say, Mexico, and annex some portion of it that is English speaking?
> The Russian actions in the Crimea are exactly what the US would do in 
> similar circumstances.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
> To: P-list List <pynchon-l at waste.org>
> Sent: Thu, Mar 13, 2014 3:37 pm
> Subject: Re: What happens to a conspiracy revealed?
> 
> Snyder shows one side of the picture and i really believe it is true to many 
> Ukrainians. Yanukovich was a greedy asshole.  But there were also killings of 
> police, hardcore anti-semitism, the overthrow of an elected government and an 
> unwillingness to negotiate a transition despite the closeness of the next 
> elections. When you pursue the overthrow of a government, even one elected by 
> majority vote, there is no place including the US where you will not find 
> violent resistance by the authorities.  I have tried to listen to all sides of a 
> story in a place that I don't know much about. What I have a hard time with is 
> the US choosing a less than wildly popular central banker to be the "interim  
> prime minister" . And I am skeptical that it was a truly democratic process  to 
> endorse him. I hope for the best for a real revolution that makes a better 
> society.  The Russian actions in the Crimea are exactly what the US would do in 
> similar circumstances. They have been careful to avoid unneeded violence.  I 
> think accepting this division is realistic and relatively harmless.  I predict 
> it will stand with the approval of the Crimean majority and be inconsequential. 
> I don't think Ukraine will have solved its problems by joining the EU if they do 
> so. Happy to be wrong about that.   
> 
> As to his last question the US was as diverse a population as anywhere on the 
> planet at the time of the revolution though it was clearly led by millionaire 
> merchants, land speculators etc. the soldiers were quite diverse as was the case 
> in South American revolutions.  For me the question is more whether the 
> revolutionaries represent a consensus of Ukrainians. I simply don't know and 
> don't feel much effort has been made to really answer that question in an open 
> honest way.  
> 
> 
> On Mar 13, 2014, at 1:38 PM, rich wrote:
> 
> > passion is one thing. Here's Timothy Snyder on the uprising in Ukraine
> > 
> > 
> http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/mar/01/ukraine-haze-propaganda/
> 
> > 
> > 'In December the crowds grew larger. By the end of the year, millions of 
> people had taken part in protests, all over the country. Journalists  were 
> beaten. Individual activists were abducted. Some of them were tortured. Dozens 
> disappeared and have not yet been found. As the New Year began the protests 
> broadened. Muslims from southern Ukraine marched in large numbers. 
> Representatives of the large Kiev Jewish community were prominently represented. 
> Some of the most important organizers were Jews. The telephone hotline that 
> people called to seek missing relatives was established by gay activists (people 
> who have experience with hotlines). Some of the hospital guards who tried to 
> stop the police from abducting the wounded were young feminists. '
> > 
> > 'Who was killed? Dozens of people, in all about a hundred, most of them young 
> men. Bohdan Solchanyk was a young lecturer at the Ukrainian Catholic University, 
> a Ukrainian speaker from western Ukraine. He was shot and killed. Yevhen Kotlyov 
> was an environmentalist from Kharkiv, a Russian speaker from eastern Ukraine. He 
> was shot and killed. One of the people killed was a Russian citizen; a number of 
> Russians had come to fight—most of them anarchists who had come to aid their 
> Ukrainian anarchist comrades. At least two of those killed by the regime, and 
> perhaps more, were Jews. One of those “Afghans,” Ukrainian veterans of the Red 
> Army’s war in Afghanistan, was Jewish: Alexander Scherbatyuk. He was shot and 
> killed by a sniper. Another of those killed was a Pole, a member of Ukraine’s 
> Polish minority.
> > 
> > Has it ever before happened that people associated with Ukrainian, Russian, 
> Belarusian, Armenian, Polish, and Jewish culture have died in a revolution that 
> was started by a Muslim? Can we who pride ourselves in our diversity and 
> tolerance think of anything remotely similar in our own histories?'
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 1:26 PM, <
> kelber at mindspring.com
> > wrote:
> > For the record, I appreciate both the tone and content of Joseph's post. 
> Passionate and coherent, without a hint of snarkiness.
> > 
> > Laura
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > >From: Joseph Tracy <
> brook7 at sover.net
> >
> > >Sent: Mar 13, 2014 12:36 PM
> > >To: P-list List <
> pynchon-l at waste.org
> >
> > >Subject: Re: What happens to a conspiracy revealed?
> > >
> > >OK, I may be an outawork preacher, but I got no Kingdom, no ism, nothin but 
> snakes and holy ghosts and pictures in slow light.
> > >On Mar 13, 2014, at 1:36 AM, David Morris wrote:
> > >
> > >> And I don't disagree with your indictment. But you are such a preacher! You 
> need a side kick.  A mcGuffin.
> > >>
> > >> On Thursday, March 13, 2014, David Morris <
> fqmorris at gmail.com
> > wrote:
> > >> You really sound like a Southern snake handler. With lots of fire! Almost 
> to get me a raisening a cross! Zee-Haw!
> > >>
> > >> On Wednesday, March 12, 2014, Joseph Tracy <
> brook7 at sover.net
> > wrote:
> > >> Just wrong. The effect of our version of capitalism has not distributed but 
> concentrated wealth.  Actually corporate capitalism does not know what wealth 
> really is, assuming it is raw power in the form of dollars which mostly 
> represents burnable fuel. The fuel is running out, and being turned into acidic 
> oceans and carbon saturated atmosphere which will raise sea levels and is 
> producing catastrophic climate changes.  And there is no magic replacement on 
> the horizon. Rather there is a global infrastructure utterly dependent on a 
> limited a resource.This is not wealth but an insane and planless disruption of a 
> planetary ecosystem as though planets were some kind of automatic teller with an 
> infinite supply of capital goods.
> > >>  Machiavelli was a guide to criminal authoritarianism. Yes it works for a 
> few for a while, but our empire is no more benign than any other, Capitalism is 
> out of ideas and is a boorish idiot eating everything in sight , starting with 
> the weak.  The current market system will crash.  There is simply too much 
> imaginary money chasing too little of real value.
> > >>  As far as your orthodoxy on Ukraine, I don't buy it. I am no fan of Putin 
> but he has done better in terms of GDP and raised standard of living over his 
> time in office than the western states.  I believe the current stand off will 
> stand despite Kerry's hypocritical bombast and Crimea will be better off in 
> future days than Ukraine.
> > >> On Mar 12, 2014, at 5:29 PM, alice malice wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> > This idea usually goes along with the one that connects the MIC to the 
> Oil industry than argues that US exploits in the region have only made wealthy, 
> the powerful and wealthy, more powerful, the powerful. But the US and it allies 
> have also raised the living standards of ordinary people. Not by trickle down, 
> but by dominating weaker nations, colonization...so on...and  own, 
> whatever....if the US did not, and if the US does not continue to, kill, and 
> meddle...push Russia on Ukraine...etc...support Israel....it's GDP, and the GDPs 
> of other nations, nations like Canada, Australia, Norway, Japan....yes, those 
> nice clean countries that never get blood on their safe and comfortable lives... 
> will suffer. Most people believe this and that is why they put up with the 
> Machiavellian  US.
> > >> >
> > >> > Somebody has got to be the Empire.
> > >> >
> > >> > On Wednesday, March 12, 2014, Michael Bailey <
> mikebailey at gmx.us
> > wrote:
> > >> > Rich wrote "how would you suggest we deal with these people"
> > >> >
> > >> > How about by not making their lives subject to a "great game", not 
> deposing their elected governments and not stealing their oil?
> > >> >
> > >> > Then if they unprovoked attack us, well! We shall be ready, and give them 
> *such* a thumping! &
> > >> > "live life, every golden minute of it!" - Pynchon-l / 
> 
> http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
> 
> > >>
> > >> -
> > >> Pynchon-l / 
> http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> 
> > >
> > >-
> > >Pynchon-l / 
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> > 
> > -
> > Pynchon-l / 
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> > 
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