And NOWHERE is Pynchon mentioned!

[Mark Kohut]

Paul,

For most of these kinds of 'metaphysical' 'ultimate' even simply
text-specific penultimate questions, I largely agree
with what Morris just sent. (and I think his first sentence is superb).

Where he and I have differed and where I still do is when he says
nothing (at all) in the book is ever "answered' finally.
I say some things are...that is, by the author thru his vision.

And if I have misrepresented Morris, he will let us know.

Mark

On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 5:17 PM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks, Mark.
>
> Here's a hint.  The desire and hope for control through technology.  Is this
> desire ever met? Can it be met? Does anyone see the answer?
>
> Can THEY be vanquished? Why not? Does it matter?
>
> Are any of the multitudinous ideas of the book of any real, true, use to
> anyone, when all is said and done?
>
> Does anyone find meaning in life? Does anyone try?
>
> Stuff like that.
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 4:01 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Paul,
>>
>> A pretty massive project, no? I can't do it.
>>
>> But what I mean is stuff like this: the riff on charisma (in the
>> post-war era) for example.  Right from Max Weber.
>>
>> The bits of anarchism as a value and something that may be a branch of
>> Buddhism sprinkled throughout.
>>
>> the Rilke.
>>
>> even simply the way he uses a Crystal Palace....with its doubled
>> allusion to the great Exhibiit....
>>
>> see how other novelists just write it straight, no layering of erudition.
>>
>> so much more...
>>
>> mark
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 3:44 PM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > I'm still curious in which sense is, say, GR a novel of ideas? Of course
>> > it
>> > is full of many felicitously presented abstruse and difficult thoughts,
>> > but,
>> > what I'd really like to see discussed are its ideas in the sense of
>> > opinions, hopes, or beliefs. Could someone  develop a list of these, and
>> > say
>> > whether they are, in the course of the novel, sought after, attained,
>> > rejected, or given up as hopeless.  Does Slothrop's quest, for example,
>> > qualify as one of these?
>> >
>> > I need to be enlighten as much as Tyrone.
>> >
>> > P
>> >
>> > On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 1:32 PM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> What you said, Peter (and well). It's hard to cut through the
>> >> accumulated
>> >> undergrowth of
>> >>
>> >> "Pynchon books are status tokens for pretentious hipsters with
>> >> post-horn
>> >> tattoos who never actually get through anything but CoL49"
>> >>
>> >> "Pynchon is the perfect starting point for another look at those wild &
>> >> wacky Sixties, [because I, the litchat writer, never got through
>> >> anything
>> >> but CoL49 and a review of Vineland]"
>> >>
>> >> "Pynchon is funny names, pop-culture references, stylistic acrobatics,
>> >> kinky sex, and a Britannica + Google's worth of obscure historical and
>> >> scientific allusions"
>> >>
>> >> "Pynchon holds the Salinger Chair of Reclusive Authorship, so he's
>> >> weird
>> >> from the jump because he's never sat down with Charlie Rose or been
>> >> photographed birding with Jonathan Franzen"
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Peter M. Fitzpatrick
>> >> <petopoet at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Here is my two cents.
>> >>>
>> >>>      I love to read Pynchon because of his absolute bravery and
>> >>> uninhibited imagination. His "ideas" are never lifeless, neutral, or
>> >>> abstract, but embodied, political, and provocative. He takes chances
>> >>> that
>> >>> remind me a great deal of James Joyce in Finnegans Wake. I don't think
>> >>> Joyce
>> >>> was particularly concerned with the hoi polloi or popularity and
>> >>> neither he
>> >>> or Pynchon will EVER be found among the books sold in the big box
>> >>> stores
>> >>> like Target, WalMart, Menards, etc. (this is an American phenomenon,
>> >>> where
>> >>> the likes of Cussler, Grisham, Patterson, etc, are found in the far
>> >>> reaches
>> >>> of almost every mass-market shelf space available, with one or two
>> >>> copies of
>> >>> each author present, changing with each new release.)
>> >>>       There is room for this kind of literature,of course, but there
>> >>> are
>> >>> those of us who demand a more inventive and boundary-testing fare.
>> >>> Pynchon
>> >>> does manage to ascend into pure lyrical poetry that almost demands
>> >>> aural
>> >>> interpretation - I do enjoy listening to an audio version of "Against
>> >>> the
>> >>> Day". Finnegans Wake is also best read aloud and listened to. These
>> >>> are
>> >>> poetic voices and are suitable for analysis of their poetics.  Much
>> >>> like
>> >>> Bakhtin devoted his life to analyzing the poetics of Dostoyevski,
>> >>> there will
>> >>> be scholars devoted to studying both Joyce and Pynchon. Yes, some of
>> >>> this
>> >>> smacks of the academic machinery that produces English department
>> >>> secondary
>> >>> source reductions that misinterpret and misconstrue. But that is the
>> >>> nature
>> >>> of interpretation. It is polyvalent and polyphonic (ala' Bakhtin) by
>> >>> rights.
>> >>> There is a reason such books attract scholastic attention.
>> >>>       They are ideas, voices, conceptions; "Weltanschauungs" in short.
>> >>> Simultaneously political, historical, and philosophical, I think we
>> >>> intuitively characterize them as novels of Ideas because they last
>> >>> longer
>> >>> than the commercial ones, thereby resembling Plato's World of Forms,
>> >>> or
>> >>> Ideals. Not quite eternal, no, but of more lasting value than say, a
>> >>> Janet
>> >>> Evanovich # 55,  ( I have read one or two of hers, by the way.)
>> >>>
>> >>>    -Pete
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 4:49 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> If inclusion on course syllabuses is indicative of the respect
>> >>>> teachers
>> >>>> have for an author, than our man P is respected in the academy. His
>> >>>> works
>> >>>> are taught at all the tier one Colleges and highest ranked
>> >>>> Universities in
>> >>>> the US, at State Universities and Colleges,  to humanities and
>> >>>> non-humanities students.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 6:42 PM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I'm glad there are some out there who respect our guy.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> P
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>
>
-
Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l