And NOWHERE is Pynchon mentioned!

[John Bailey]

I've recently come to think that GR is closer to poetry than any other
literary form. Like most poetry it's a marriage of ideas and
sensation, is very visceral and bodily, can be hugely abstract but is
rarely just that. Poetry isn't typically great at "character" but
character itself is a literary device usually associated with a
particular kind of novel-writing that privileges individualism and
psychological integrity.

On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 9:26 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
> Paul,
>
> For most of these kinds of 'metaphysical' 'ultimate' even simply
> text-specific penultimate questions, I largely agree
> with what Morris just sent. (and I think his first sentence is superb).
>
> Where he and I have differed and where I still do is when he says
> nothing (at all) in the book is ever "answered' finally.
> I say some things are...that is, by the author thru his vision.
>
> And if I have misrepresented Morris, he will let us know.
>
> Mark
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 5:17 PM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Thanks, Mark.
>>
>> Here's a hint.  The desire and hope for control through technology.  Is this
>> desire ever met? Can it be met? Does anyone see the answer?
>>
>> Can THEY be vanquished? Why not? Does it matter?
>>
>> Are any of the multitudinous ideas of the book of any real, true, use to
>> anyone, when all is said and done?
>>
>> Does anyone find meaning in life? Does anyone try?
>>
>> Stuff like that.
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 4:01 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Paul,
>>>
>>> A pretty massive project, no? I can't do it.
>>>
>>> But what I mean is stuff like this: the riff on charisma (in the
>>> post-war era) for example.  Right from Max Weber.
>>>
>>> The bits of anarchism as a value and something that may be a branch of
>>> Buddhism sprinkled throughout.
>>>
>>> the Rilke.
>>>
>>> even simply the way he uses a Crystal Palace....with its doubled
>>> allusion to the great Exhibiit....
>>>
>>> see how other novelists just write it straight, no layering of erudition.
>>>
>>> so much more...
>>>
>>> mark
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 3:44 PM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > I'm still curious in which sense is, say, GR a novel of ideas? Of course
>>> > it
>>> > is full of many felicitously presented abstruse and difficult thoughts,
>>> > but,
>>> > what I'd really like to see discussed are its ideas in the sense of
>>> > opinions, hopes, or beliefs. Could someone  develop a list of these, and
>>> > say
>>> > whether they are, in the course of the novel, sought after, attained,
>>> > rejected, or given up as hopeless.  Does Slothrop's quest, for example,
>>> > qualify as one of these?
>>> >
>>> > I need to be enlighten as much as Tyrone.
>>> >
>>> > P
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 1:32 PM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> What you said, Peter (and well). It's hard to cut through the
>>> >> accumulated
>>> >> undergrowth of
>>> >>
>>> >> "Pynchon books are status tokens for pretentious hipsters with
>>> >> post-horn
>>> >> tattoos who never actually get through anything but CoL49"
>>> >>
>>> >> "Pynchon is the perfect starting point for another look at those wild &
>>> >> wacky Sixties, [because I, the litchat writer, never got through
>>> >> anything
>>> >> but CoL49 and a review of Vineland]"
>>> >>
>>> >> "Pynchon is funny names, pop-culture references, stylistic acrobatics,
>>> >> kinky sex, and a Britannica + Google's worth of obscure historical and
>>> >> scientific allusions"
>>> >>
>>> >> "Pynchon holds the Salinger Chair of Reclusive Authorship, so he's
>>> >> weird
>>> >> from the jump because he's never sat down with Charlie Rose or been
>>> >> photographed birding with Jonathan Franzen"
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Peter M. Fitzpatrick
>>> >> <petopoet at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Here is my two cents.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>      I love to read Pynchon because of his absolute bravery and
>>> >>> uninhibited imagination. His "ideas" are never lifeless, neutral, or
>>> >>> abstract, but embodied, political, and provocative. He takes chances
>>> >>> that
>>> >>> remind me a great deal of James Joyce in Finnegans Wake. I don't think
>>> >>> Joyce
>>> >>> was particularly concerned with the hoi polloi or popularity and
>>> >>> neither he
>>> >>> or Pynchon will EVER be found among the books sold in the big box
>>> >>> stores
>>> >>> like Target, WalMart, Menards, etc. (this is an American phenomenon,
>>> >>> where
>>> >>> the likes of Cussler, Grisham, Patterson, etc, are found in the far
>>> >>> reaches
>>> >>> of almost every mass-market shelf space available, with one or two
>>> >>> copies of
>>> >>> each author present, changing with each new release.)
>>> >>>       There is room for this kind of literature,of course, but there
>>> >>> are
>>> >>> those of us who demand a more inventive and boundary-testing fare.
>>> >>> Pynchon
>>> >>> does manage to ascend into pure lyrical poetry that almost demands
>>> >>> aural
>>> >>> interpretation - I do enjoy listening to an audio version of "Against
>>> >>> the
>>> >>> Day". Finnegans Wake is also best read aloud and listened to. These
>>> >>> are
>>> >>> poetic voices and are suitable for analysis of their poetics.  Much
>>> >>> like
>>> >>> Bakhtin devoted his life to analyzing the poetics of Dostoyevski,
>>> >>> there will
>>> >>> be scholars devoted to studying both Joyce and Pynchon. Yes, some of
>>> >>> this
>>> >>> smacks of the academic machinery that produces English department
>>> >>> secondary
>>> >>> source reductions that misinterpret and misconstrue. But that is the
>>> >>> nature
>>> >>> of interpretation. It is polyvalent and polyphonic (ala' Bakhtin) by
>>> >>> rights.
>>> >>> There is a reason such books attract scholastic attention.
>>> >>>       They are ideas, voices, conceptions; "Weltanschauungs" in short.
>>> >>> Simultaneously political, historical, and philosophical, I think we
>>> >>> intuitively characterize them as novels of Ideas because they last
>>> >>> longer
>>> >>> than the commercial ones, thereby resembling Plato's World of Forms,
>>> >>> or
>>> >>> Ideals. Not quite eternal, no, but of more lasting value than say, a
>>> >>> Janet
>>> >>> Evanovich # 55,  ( I have read one or two of hers, by the way.)
>>> >>>
>>> >>>    -Pete
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 4:49 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com>
>>> >>> wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> If inclusion on course syllabuses is indicative of the respect
>>> >>>> teachers
>>> >>>> have for an author, than our man P is respected in the academy. His
>>> >>>> works
>>> >>>> are taught at all the tier one Colleges and highest ranked
>>> >>>> Universities in
>>> >>>> the US, at State Universities and Colleges,  to humanities and
>>> >>>> non-humanities students.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 6:42 PM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com>
>>> >>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> I'm glad there are some out there who respect our guy.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> P
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>
>>
> -
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