And NOWHERE is Pynchon mentioned!
Paul Mackin
mackin.paul at gmail.com
Mon Dec 14 17:05:21 CST 2015
Wow, thanks, everybody.
P
On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 5:52 PM, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com> wrote:
> Totally.
>
> On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 9:42 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Paradise Lost....only more lyrical....as if Shakespeare rewrote
> > Milton. (OK, over the top...I'm stopping now)...but you
> >
> > see the point?
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 5:38 PM, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> I've recently come to think that GR is closer to poetry than any other
> >> literary form. Like most poetry it's a marriage of ideas and
> >> sensation, is very visceral and bodily, can be hugely abstract but is
> >> rarely just that. Poetry isn't typically great at "character" but
> >> character itself is a literary device usually associated with a
> >> particular kind of novel-writing that privileges individualism and
> >> psychological integrity.
> >>
> >> On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 9:26 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>> Paul,
> >>>
> >>> For most of these kinds of 'metaphysical' 'ultimate' even simply
> >>> text-specific penultimate questions, I largely agree
> >>> with what Morris just sent. (and I think his first sentence is superb).
> >>>
> >>> Where he and I have differed and where I still do is when he says
> >>> nothing (at all) in the book is ever "answered' finally.
> >>> I say some things are...that is, by the author thru his vision.
> >>>
> >>> And if I have misrepresented Morris, he will let us know.
> >>>
> >>> Mark
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 5:17 PM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>> Thanks, Mark.
> >>>>
> >>>> Here's a hint. The desire and hope for control through technology.
> Is this
> >>>> desire ever met? Can it be met? Does anyone see the answer?
> >>>>
> >>>> Can THEY be vanquished? Why not? Does it matter?
> >>>>
> >>>> Are any of the multitudinous ideas of the book of any real, true, use
> to
> >>>> anyone, when all is said and done?
> >>>>
> >>>> Does anyone find meaning in life? Does anyone try?
> >>>>
> >>>> Stuff like that.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 4:01 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Paul,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> A pretty massive project, no? I can't do it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But what I mean is stuff like this: the riff on charisma (in the
> >>>>> post-war era) for example. Right from Max Weber.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The bits of anarchism as a value and something that may be a branch
> of
> >>>>> Buddhism sprinkled throughout.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> the Rilke.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> even simply the way he uses a Crystal Palace....with its doubled
> >>>>> allusion to the great Exhibiit....
> >>>>>
> >>>>> see how other novelists just write it straight, no layering of
> erudition.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> so much more...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> mark
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 3:44 PM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>> > I'm still curious in which sense is, say, GR a novel of ideas? Of
> course
> >>>>> > it
> >>>>> > is full of many felicitously presented abstruse and difficult
> thoughts,
> >>>>> > but,
> >>>>> > what I'd really like to see discussed are its ideas in the sense of
> >>>>> > opinions, hopes, or beliefs. Could someone develop a list of
> these, and
> >>>>> > say
> >>>>> > whether they are, in the course of the novel, sought after,
> attained,
> >>>>> > rejected, or given up as hopeless. Does Slothrop's quest, for
> example,
> >>>>> > qualify as one of these?
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > I need to be enlighten as much as Tyrone.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > P
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 1:32 PM, Monte Davis <
> montedavis49 at gmail.com>
> >>>>> > wrote:
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> What you said, Peter (and well). It's hard to cut through the
> >>>>> >> accumulated
> >>>>> >> undergrowth of
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> "Pynchon books are status tokens for pretentious hipsters with
> >>>>> >> post-horn
> >>>>> >> tattoos who never actually get through anything but CoL49"
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> "Pynchon is the perfect starting point for another look at those
> wild &
> >>>>> >> wacky Sixties, [because I, the litchat writer, never got through
> >>>>> >> anything
> >>>>> >> but CoL49 and a review of Vineland]"
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> "Pynchon is funny names, pop-culture references, stylistic
> acrobatics,
> >>>>> >> kinky sex, and a Britannica + Google's worth of obscure
> historical and
> >>>>> >> scientific allusions"
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> "Pynchon holds the Salinger Chair of Reclusive Authorship, so he's
> >>>>> >> weird
> >>>>> >> from the jump because he's never sat down with Charlie Rose or
> been
> >>>>> >> photographed birding with Jonathan Franzen"
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Peter M. Fitzpatrick
> >>>>> >> <petopoet at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> Here is my two cents.
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> I love to read Pynchon because of his absolute bravery and
> >>>>> >>> uninhibited imagination. His "ideas" are never lifeless,
> neutral, or
> >>>>> >>> abstract, but embodied, political, and provocative. He takes
> chances
> >>>>> >>> that
> >>>>> >>> remind me a great deal of James Joyce in Finnegans Wake. I don't
> think
> >>>>> >>> Joyce
> >>>>> >>> was particularly concerned with the hoi polloi or popularity and
> >>>>> >>> neither he
> >>>>> >>> or Pynchon will EVER be found among the books sold in the big box
> >>>>> >>> stores
> >>>>> >>> like Target, WalMart, Menards, etc. (this is an American
> phenomenon,
> >>>>> >>> where
> >>>>> >>> the likes of Cussler, Grisham, Patterson, etc, are found in the
> far
> >>>>> >>> reaches
> >>>>> >>> of almost every mass-market shelf space available, with one or
> two
> >>>>> >>> copies of
> >>>>> >>> each author present, changing with each new release.)
> >>>>> >>> There is room for this kind of literature,of course, but
> there
> >>>>> >>> are
> >>>>> >>> those of us who demand a more inventive and boundary-testing
> fare.
> >>>>> >>> Pynchon
> >>>>> >>> does manage to ascend into pure lyrical poetry that almost
> demands
> >>>>> >>> aural
> >>>>> >>> interpretation - I do enjoy listening to an audio version of
> "Against
> >>>>> >>> the
> >>>>> >>> Day". Finnegans Wake is also best read aloud and listened to.
> These
> >>>>> >>> are
> >>>>> >>> poetic voices and are suitable for analysis of their poetics.
> Much
> >>>>> >>> like
> >>>>> >>> Bakhtin devoted his life to analyzing the poetics of Dostoyevski,
> >>>>> >>> there will
> >>>>> >>> be scholars devoted to studying both Joyce and Pynchon. Yes,
> some of
> >>>>> >>> this
> >>>>> >>> smacks of the academic machinery that produces English department
> >>>>> >>> secondary
> >>>>> >>> source reductions that misinterpret and misconstrue. But that is
> the
> >>>>> >>> nature
> >>>>> >>> of interpretation. It is polyvalent and polyphonic (ala'
> Bakhtin) by
> >>>>> >>> rights.
> >>>>> >>> There is a reason such books attract scholastic attention.
> >>>>> >>> They are ideas, voices, conceptions; "Weltanschauungs" in
> short.
> >>>>> >>> Simultaneously political, historical, and philosophical, I think
> we
> >>>>> >>> intuitively characterize them as novels of Ideas because they
> last
> >>>>> >>> longer
> >>>>> >>> than the commercial ones, thereby resembling Plato's World of
> Forms,
> >>>>> >>> or
> >>>>> >>> Ideals. Not quite eternal, no, but of more lasting value than
> say, a
> >>>>> >>> Janet
> >>>>> >>> Evanovich # 55, ( I have read one or two of hers, by the way.)
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> -Pete
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 4:49 AM, ish mailian <
> ishmailian at gmail.com>
> >>>>> >>> wrote:
> >>>>> >>>>
> >>>>> >>>> If inclusion on course syllabuses is indicative of the respect
> >>>>> >>>> teachers
> >>>>> >>>> have for an author, than our man P is respected in the academy.
> His
> >>>>> >>>> works
> >>>>> >>>> are taught at all the tier one Colleges and highest ranked
> >>>>> >>>> Universities in
> >>>>> >>>> the US, at State Universities and Colleges, to humanities and
> >>>>> >>>> non-humanities students.
> >>>>> >>>>
> >>>>> >>>>
> >>>>> >>>>
> >>>>> >>>> On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 6:42 PM, Paul Mackin <
> mackin.paul at gmail.com>
> >>>>> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>> >>>>>
> >>>>> >>>>> I'm glad there are some out there who respect our guy.
> >>>>> >>>>>
> >>>>> >>>>> P
> >>>>> >>>>>
> >>>>> >>>>
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> -
> >>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>
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