And NOWHERE is Pynchon mentioned!

[John Bailey]

Totally.

On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 9:42 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
> Paradise Lost....only more lyrical....as if Shakespeare rewrote
> Milton. (OK, over the top...I'm stopping now)...but you
>
> see the point?
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 5:38 PM, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I've recently come to think that GR is closer to poetry than any other
>> literary form. Like most poetry it's a marriage of ideas and
>> sensation, is very visceral and bodily, can be hugely abstract but is
>> rarely just that. Poetry isn't typically great at "character" but
>> character itself is a literary device usually associated with a
>> particular kind of novel-writing that privileges individualism and
>> psychological integrity.
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 9:26 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Paul,
>>>
>>> For most of these kinds of 'metaphysical' 'ultimate' even simply
>>> text-specific penultimate questions, I largely agree
>>> with what Morris just sent. (and I think his first sentence is superb).
>>>
>>> Where he and I have differed and where I still do is when he says
>>> nothing (at all) in the book is ever "answered' finally.
>>> I say some things are...that is, by the author thru his vision.
>>>
>>> And if I have misrepresented Morris, he will let us know.
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 5:17 PM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Thanks, Mark.
>>>>
>>>> Here's a hint.  The desire and hope for control through technology.  Is this
>>>> desire ever met? Can it be met? Does anyone see the answer?
>>>>
>>>> Can THEY be vanquished? Why not? Does it matter?
>>>>
>>>> Are any of the multitudinous ideas of the book of any real, true, use to
>>>> anyone, when all is said and done?
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone find meaning in life? Does anyone try?
>>>>
>>>> Stuff like that.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 4:01 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul,
>>>>>
>>>>> A pretty massive project, no? I can't do it.
>>>>>
>>>>> But what I mean is stuff like this: the riff on charisma (in the
>>>>> post-war era) for example.  Right from Max Weber.
>>>>>
>>>>> The bits of anarchism as a value and something that may be a branch of
>>>>> Buddhism sprinkled throughout.
>>>>>
>>>>> the Rilke.
>>>>>
>>>>> even simply the way he uses a Crystal Palace....with its doubled
>>>>> allusion to the great Exhibiit....
>>>>>
>>>>> see how other novelists just write it straight, no layering of erudition.
>>>>>
>>>>> so much more...
>>>>>
>>>>> mark
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 3:44 PM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> > I'm still curious in which sense is, say, GR a novel of ideas? Of course
>>>>> > it
>>>>> > is full of many felicitously presented abstruse and difficult thoughts,
>>>>> > but,
>>>>> > what I'd really like to see discussed are its ideas in the sense of
>>>>> > opinions, hopes, or beliefs. Could someone  develop a list of these, and
>>>>> > say
>>>>> > whether they are, in the course of the novel, sought after, attained,
>>>>> > rejected, or given up as hopeless.  Does Slothrop's quest, for example,
>>>>> > qualify as one of these?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I need to be enlighten as much as Tyrone.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > P
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 1:32 PM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com>
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> What you said, Peter (and well). It's hard to cut through the
>>>>> >> accumulated
>>>>> >> undergrowth of
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> "Pynchon books are status tokens for pretentious hipsters with
>>>>> >> post-horn
>>>>> >> tattoos who never actually get through anything but CoL49"
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> "Pynchon is the perfect starting point for another look at those wild &
>>>>> >> wacky Sixties, [because I, the litchat writer, never got through
>>>>> >> anything
>>>>> >> but CoL49 and a review of Vineland]"
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> "Pynchon is funny names, pop-culture references, stylistic acrobatics,
>>>>> >> kinky sex, and a Britannica + Google's worth of obscure historical and
>>>>> >> scientific allusions"
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> "Pynchon holds the Salinger Chair of Reclusive Authorship, so he's
>>>>> >> weird
>>>>> >> from the jump because he's never sat down with Charlie Rose or been
>>>>> >> photographed birding with Jonathan Franzen"
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Peter M. Fitzpatrick
>>>>> >> <petopoet at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Here is my two cents.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>      I love to read Pynchon because of his absolute bravery and
>>>>> >>> uninhibited imagination. His "ideas" are never lifeless, neutral, or
>>>>> >>> abstract, but embodied, political, and provocative. He takes chances
>>>>> >>> that
>>>>> >>> remind me a great deal of James Joyce in Finnegans Wake. I don't think
>>>>> >>> Joyce
>>>>> >>> was particularly concerned with the hoi polloi or popularity and
>>>>> >>> neither he
>>>>> >>> or Pynchon will EVER be found among the books sold in the big box
>>>>> >>> stores
>>>>> >>> like Target, WalMart, Menards, etc. (this is an American phenomenon,
>>>>> >>> where
>>>>> >>> the likes of Cussler, Grisham, Patterson, etc, are found in the far
>>>>> >>> reaches
>>>>> >>> of almost every mass-market shelf space available, with one or two
>>>>> >>> copies of
>>>>> >>> each author present, changing with each new release.)
>>>>> >>>       There is room for this kind of literature,of course, but there
>>>>> >>> are
>>>>> >>> those of us who demand a more inventive and boundary-testing fare.
>>>>> >>> Pynchon
>>>>> >>> does manage to ascend into pure lyrical poetry that almost demands
>>>>> >>> aural
>>>>> >>> interpretation - I do enjoy listening to an audio version of "Against
>>>>> >>> the
>>>>> >>> Day". Finnegans Wake is also best read aloud and listened to. These
>>>>> >>> are
>>>>> >>> poetic voices and are suitable for analysis of their poetics.  Much
>>>>> >>> like
>>>>> >>> Bakhtin devoted his life to analyzing the poetics of Dostoyevski,
>>>>> >>> there will
>>>>> >>> be scholars devoted to studying both Joyce and Pynchon. Yes, some of
>>>>> >>> this
>>>>> >>> smacks of the academic machinery that produces English department
>>>>> >>> secondary
>>>>> >>> source reductions that misinterpret and misconstrue. But that is the
>>>>> >>> nature
>>>>> >>> of interpretation. It is polyvalent and polyphonic (ala' Bakhtin) by
>>>>> >>> rights.
>>>>> >>> There is a reason such books attract scholastic attention.
>>>>> >>>       They are ideas, voices, conceptions; "Weltanschauungs" in short.
>>>>> >>> Simultaneously political, historical, and philosophical, I think we
>>>>> >>> intuitively characterize them as novels of Ideas because they last
>>>>> >>> longer
>>>>> >>> than the commercial ones, thereby resembling Plato's World of Forms,
>>>>> >>> or
>>>>> >>> Ideals. Not quite eternal, no, but of more lasting value than say, a
>>>>> >>> Janet
>>>>> >>> Evanovich # 55,  ( I have read one or two of hers, by the way.)
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>    -Pete
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 4:49 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com>
>>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> If inclusion on course syllabuses is indicative of the respect
>>>>> >>>> teachers
>>>>> >>>> have for an author, than our man P is respected in the academy. His
>>>>> >>>> works
>>>>> >>>> are taught at all the tier one Colleges and highest ranked
>>>>> >>>> Universities in
>>>>> >>>> the US, at State Universities and Colleges,  to humanities and
>>>>> >>>> non-humanities students.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 6:42 PM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com>
>>>>> >>>> wrote:
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> I'm glad there are some out there who respect our guy.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> P
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>> -
>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
-
Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l