Men Explain Lolita To Me

[Johnny Marr]

Perhaps Ray thinks that Dolores Haze is real but 'Lolita' is HH's sick
fantasy?

On Friday, December 18, 2015, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:

> Well, now we knew where our difference lies.
> She is also real (within the reality of the book), which does not take
> place just in HH's head.
>
> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 5:50 AM, Ray Easton
> <raymond.lee.easton at gmail.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > But there is no "Lolita herself" -- only HH's construct, his creature.
> >
> > [ I am not containing because I think we are going to reach agreement,
> but
> > because I find it an interesting exchange. :-) ]
> >
> > Ray
> >
> > Sent with AquaMail for Android
> > http://www.aqua-mail.com
> >
> >
> > On December 18, 2015 4:38:05 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >
> >> I think to stop at calling it " about obsession" is to leave out
> essential
> >> details, such as LOLITA ( mostly) herself and her ' meanings' by the
> end of
> >> the book.
> >> But, as I said, we differ it seems.
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPad
> >>
> >>> On Dec 18, 2015, at 5:31 AM, Ray Easton <raymond.lee.easton at gmail.com
> <javascript:;>>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I should also have said:
> >>>
> >>> Lolita is *profoundly* amoral.  It's amorality is central to it,
> >>> critical to what it is about.
> >>>
> >>> Ray
> >>>
> >>> Sent with AquaMail for Android
> >>> http://www.aqua-mail.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On December 18, 2015 4:17:20 AM Ray Easton
> >>>> <raymond.lee.easton at gmail.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I was aware that you were alluding to words of HH himself -- all the
> >>>> more
> >>>> reason to be wary!  HH makes a fictional living out of manipulating
> the
> >>>> way
> >>>> we see him.
> >>>>
> >>>> And one ought to be especially wary in this case, given that the novel
> >>>> explicitly pokes fun at the view that this is a morality tale -- that
> is
> >>>> John Ray's view of the story!
> >>>>
> >>>> Lolita is indeed more than a stylistic exercise.  It is a presentation
> >>>> of
> >>>> obsession,  perhaps the best there is; certainly the best with which I
> >>>> am
> >>>> acquainted.
> >>>>
> >>>> The novel itself requires no "moral lesson" for its validation.  It is
> >>>> we,
> >>>> the readers, who want rather desperately to find such a lesson present
> >>>> --
> >>>> in this we are like HH himself. HH no doubt would say to us, while
> >>>> charmingly smiling,  "Hypocrite lecteur..."
> >>>>
> >>>> Ray
> >>>>
> >>>> Sent with AquaMail for Android
> >>>> http://www.aqua-mail.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> On December 18, 2015 3:25:35 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com
> <javascript:;>>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yeahp. One--I--can sound silly defending fictional " truth" in such a
> >>>>> writer. so it be. We differ. Nabokov's LOLITA would be nothing but a
> >>>>> stylistic exercise if he did not believe and show in the novel
> >>>>> awareness
> >>>>> that pedophilia IS pedophilia. My perhaps lame remark on him "
> getting
> >>>>> what
> >>>>> he deserves" was, if I remember correctly, a verbal allusion to
> >>>>> Humbert's
> >>>>> very words as HE suggested his proper punishment, if you will
> remember.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Totally amoral or whatever as you position re Nabokov , you will need
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> explain Humber's recognition scene and subsequent awareness.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sent from my iPad
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Dec 17, 2015, at 7:37 PM, Ray Easton <
> raymond.lee.easton at gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> When I say 'Nabakov does not care a fig...' I am not referring to
> what
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> man in his "non-fic life" did or did not believe.  (I don't care
> about
> >>>>>> such
> >>>>>> things.)  I mean that his novels have no moral viewpoint and present
> >>>>>> no
> >>>>>> moral lessons.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> HH "gets what he deserves" -- you sound like John Ray, Jr., PhD.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Ray
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Sent with AquaMail for Android
> >>>>>> http://www.aqua-mail.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On December 17, 2015 5:35:40 PM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com
> <javascript:;>>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> yeah, Nabokov greatly dissed 'morality' in fiction all his non-fic
> >>>>>>> life...
> >>>>>>> but he did believe in themes and human goodness and badness..
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> some take Nabokov's constant dissing of 'morality' as part-act
> >>>>>>> (against
> >>>>>>> lousy, sentimental poshlost fiction) and part unreliable
> narrator...
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Anyway, he recognized love and death and themes related to and life
> >>>>>>> and sense perceptions and
> >>>>>>> so much more in his own
> >>>>>>> and in others' fictions.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 5:50 PM, Ray Easton
> >>>>>>> <raymond.lee.easton at gmail.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Morality -- Nabakov does not care a fig about morality.  And  the
> >>>>>>>> novel is
> >>>>>>>> designed to force us to identity not with Lokita, but with HH.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Ray
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On December 17, 2015 4:40:02 PM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com
> <javascript:;>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> we have to identify with Lolita because common human
> morality....to
> >>>>>>>>> read it right....
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Sent with AquaMail for Android
> >>>>>>>> http://www.aqua-mail.com
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> -
> >>>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -
> >>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -
> >>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
> >
> >
> >
> > -
> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
> -
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>
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