Men Explain Lolita To Me

Fri Dec 18 05:46:04 CST 2015

My point perhaps. Lolita is twelve. Pedophilia is real (within the
reality of the novel).

Nabokov knows that; knows that we know that. Her reality---an Other's
reality; an Other
who could never be a real Other (to HH)--is what HH FINALLY sees.

Yes, HH is a Great White Male obsessive who incorporates his solipsism
(until too late) and
THAT would have made a much deeper essay by Ms Solnit, I think.

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 6:21 AM, Ray Easton
<raymond.lee.easton at gmail.com> wrote:
> We are told the story itself is "real" (by John Ray), so there is (within
> the reality of the novel) something that takes place outside HH's head.
> But HH himself is a solipsist (desperately unhappy with his solipsism) --
> "somewhere" there is a "real" Lolita,  but we have no access to her; all we
> have is HH's creature.
>
> Ray
>
> Sent with AquaMail for Android
> http://www.aqua-mail.com
>
>
> On December 18, 2015 5:09:25 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Well, now we knew where our difference lies.
>> She is also real (within the reality of the book), which does not take
>> place just in HH's head.
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 5:50 AM, Ray Easton
>> <raymond.lee.easton at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> But there is no "Lolita herself" -- only HH's construct, his creature.
>>>
>>> [ I am not containing because I think we are going to reach agreement,
>>> but
>>> because I find it an interesting exchange. :-) ]
>>>
>>> Ray
>>>
>>> Sent with AquaMail for Android
>>> http://www.aqua-mail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> On December 18, 2015 4:38:05 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think to stop at calling it " about obsession" is to leave out
>>>> essential
>>>> details, such as LOLITA ( mostly) herself and her ' meanings' by the end
>>>> of
>>>> the book.
>>>> But, as I said, we differ it seems.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>
>>>>> On Dec 18, 2015, at 5:31 AM, Ray Easton <raymond.lee.easton at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I should also have said:
>>>>>
>>>>> Lolita is *profoundly* amoral.  It's amorality is central to it,
>>>>> critical to what it is about.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ray
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent with AquaMail for Android
>>>>> http://www.aqua-mail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On December 18, 2015 4:17:20 AM Ray Easton
>>>>>> <raymond.lee.easton at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was aware that you were alluding to words of HH himself -- all the
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> reason to be wary!  HH makes a fictional living out of manipulating
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> way
>>>>>> we see him.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And one ought to be especially wary in this case, given that the novel
>>>>>> explicitly pokes fun at the view that this is a morality tale -- that
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> John Ray's view of the story!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lolita is indeed more than a stylistic exercise.  It is a presentation
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> obsession,  perhaps the best there is; certainly the best with which I
>>>>>> am
>>>>>> acquainted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The novel itself requires no "moral lesson" for its validation.  It is
>>>>>> we,
>>>>>> the readers, who want rather desperately to find such a lesson present
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> in this we are like HH himself. HH no doubt would say to us, while
>>>>>> charmingly smiling,  "Hypocrite lecteur..."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ray
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent with AquaMail for Android
>>>>>> http://www.aqua-mail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On December 18, 2015 3:25:35 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yeahp. One--I--can sound silly defending fictional " truth" in such a
>>>>>>> writer. so it be. We differ. Nabokov's LOLITA would be nothing but a
>>>>>>> stylistic exercise if he did not believe and show in the novel
>>>>>>> awareness
>>>>>>> that pedophilia IS pedophilia. My perhaps lame remark on him "
>>>>>>> getting
>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>> he deserves" was, if I remember correctly, a verbal allusion to
>>>>>>> Humbert's
>>>>>>> very words as HE suggested his proper punishment, if you will
>>>>>>> remember.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Totally amoral or whatever as you position re Nabokov , you will need
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> explain Humber's recognition scene and subsequent awareness.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Dec 17, 2015, at 7:37 PM, Ray Easton
>>>>>>>> <raymond.lee.easton at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When I say 'Nabakov does not care a fig...' I am not referring to
>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> man in his "non-fic life" did or did not believe.  (I don't care
>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>> things.)  I mean that his novels have no moral viewpoint and present
>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>> moral lessons.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> HH "gets what he deserves" -- you sound like John Ray, Jr., PhD.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ray
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent with AquaMail for Android
>>>>>>>> http://www.aqua-mail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On December 17, 2015 5:35:40 PM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> yeah, Nabokov greatly dissed 'morality' in fiction all his non-fic
>>>>>>>>> life...
>>>>>>>>> but he did believe in themes and human goodness and badness..
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> some take Nabokov's constant dissing of 'morality' as part-act
>>>>>>>>> (against
>>>>>>>>> lousy, sentimental poshlost fiction) and part unreliable
>>>>>>>>> narrator...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Anyway, he recognized love and death and themes related to and life
>>>>>>>>> and sense perceptions and
>>>>>>>>> so much more in his own
>>>>>>>>> and in others' fictions.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 5:50 PM, Ray Easton
>>>>>>>>> <raymond.lee.easton at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Morality -- Nabakov does not care a fig about morality.  And  the
>>>>>>>>>> novel is
>>>>>>>>>> designed to force us to identity not with Lokita, but with HH.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ray
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On December 17, 2015 4:40:02 PM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> we have to identify with Lolita because common human
>>>>>>>>>>> morality....to
>>>>>>>>>>> read it right....
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent with AquaMail for Android
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.aqua-mail.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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