M&D - Chapter 11 pp 109-110

Tue Feb 24 09:15:03 CST 2015

Yeah. worth pondering.
another level of how real "reality' is not what is being told herein
by whoever/both/all narrators?
THAT quotidian story, Mason's fatherly life,
those life stories, are NOT in real history?

I get confused. What could such scenes mean IF they are 'tall tales'?
And if NOT? They can't be "Reality, can they?." How does
the sliding work?

(In his book on Shakespeare, Tony Tanner elaborates on a Tennyson
observation of a river into the sea...how dramatic is
the space where they meet; how that changes the water junction
depending on tides and river flow. )

On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 9:53 AM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Allz I'm sayin is. these "out of character" glimpses of the
> recently-bereaved Mason are the white dot within the black, the black dot
> within the white, a nudge towards balancing of humors, or perhaps
> enantiodromia. I realized this time through that they had entirely dropped
> out of my image of Mason, but that won't happen again.
>
> It's also worth noticing that death-obsessed Chas married twice and fathered
> eight children in all, while lively Jere died a bachelor and (as far as we
> know) childless. Odd, that, if character is destiny,
>
> On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 7:03 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Whether Wicks or that 'other' narrator, my take is that Pynchon wanted
>> to 'deepen' Mason's character with this Gothic death-love dimension of
>> his grief. He hit it hard; pushed it, as is his wont, to an extreme;
>> this scene comes close to one of the 'obscene ones in GR, I reckon.
>> Grief for a loved one can make us feel 'half in love with easeful
>> death'. Pynchon wanted to link such death love with the Puritan
>> character, I suggest, with the Death drive as part of the attitudes to
>> living that Mason & Dixon embody as they embody the range of a
>> society, the society of the time and the US of A on the way---and to
>> the present  in that parallax scope.
>>
>> And he brings in another life-loving woman(?) who gets a little wet
>> thinking of the possible erections of the hanged and just brings that
>> up with Mason, who gets chatted up a lot better at the hanging than he
>> chats up.....exercising her female flirtatiousness.....
>>
>> Women in this book are all "like' Venuses..are just about all of them
>> inciting sexual responses all the time, yes? More male fantasies of
>> history, or any time, anywhere, I think the tale-telling set up clues
>> us to. "French Women!"...Then there is Tenebrae.
>> A pynchonian level that 'sez', women do want love...?
>>
>> As with metempsychosis, another Ulysses homage?
>> -- There's one thing it hasn't a deterrent effect on, says Alf.
>>
>> -- What's that? says Joe.
>>
>> -- The poor bugger's tool that's being hanged, says Alf.
>>
>> -- That so? says Joe.
>>
>> -- God's truth, says Alf. I heard that from the head warder that was in
>> Kilmainham when they hanged Joe Brady, the invincible. He told me when
>> they cut him down after the drop it was standing up in their faces
>> like a poker.
>>
>> -- Ruling passion strong in death, says Joe, as someone said.
>>
>> -- That can be explained by science, says Bloom. It's only a natural
>> phenomenon, don't you see, because on account of the...
>>
>> And then he starts with his jawbreakers about phenomenon and science
>> and this phenomenon and the other phenomenon.
>>
>> The distinguished scientist Herr Professor Luitpold Blumenduft
>> tendered medical evidence to the effect that the instantaneous
>> fracture of the cervical vertebrae and consequent scission of the
>> spinal cord would, according to the best approved traditions of
>> medical science, be calculated to inevitably produce in the human
>> subject a violent ganglionic stimulus of the nerve centres, causing
>> the pores of the cobra cavernosa to rapidly dilate in such a way as to
>> instantaneously facilitate the flow of blood to that part of the human
>> anatomy known as the penis or male organ resulting in the phenomenon
>> which has been dominated by the faculty a morbid upwards and outwards
>> philoprogenitive erection in articulo mortis per diminutionem capitis.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 3:41 PM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > DE> maybe Mason's dark obsessions, and journeys, "by Ferry",  are him
>> > (as
>> > Demeter...), following Rebekah into the land of the dead
>> >
>> > Orpheus going after Eurydice would require fewer sex changes, and P has
>> > done
>> > a lot with Orpheus before and since M&D. In general, my impression is
>> > that
>> > his underworld/afterlifes (possibly including the eleven days in this
>> > book?
>> > the Thanatoids? The revenant Reg Despard in BE? the interior of the
>> > earth
>> > here and in AtD?) lean more to a Greek Hades -- gray, joyless --  than
>> > to a
>> > Christian heaven or hell.
>> >
>> > And we're still left with the bottom of p. 110 -- if Wicks is narrating,
>> > *after* he has been awakened and/or brought back to awareness that the
>> > boys
>> > are listening: "'Twas then Mason began his Practice, each Friday, of
>> > going
>> > out to the hangings at Tyburn, expressly to chat up women," and his
>> > first
>> > flirtatious encounter with Florinda, complete with discussion of how the
>> > hanged are hung.
>> >
>> > The dichotomy of roistering good-time lad Dixon and mournful
>> > Rebekah-fixated
>> > Mason is so consistent throughout the book that this bit really stands
>> > out
>> > -- I think, is *meant* to stand out -- on subsequent readings. I can't
>> > make
>> > sense of it as gratuitous embroidery on Wicks' part, or as a tag-end of
>> > some
>> > alternate Masonic lifeline like the Sumatran fantasies.
>> >
>> > On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 2:38 PM, David Ewers <dsewers at comcast.net>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> While reading the passage about those "Birds of passage thro' St.
>> >> Helena,"
>> >> particularly the "Almost to a woman, they confess to strange and
>> >> inexpressible Feelings when the
>> >> ship makes landfall,-- the desolate line of peaks, the oceanic
>> >> sunlight..." part, I got the image of so many Persephones in transit
>> >> between
>> >> the land of the living and the Underworld.  Under Eleusinian Mysteries,
>> >> wikipedia describes the myth of Persephone and Demeter as:
>> >>  "a cycle with three phases, the "descent" (loss), the "search" and the
>> >> "ascent", with the main theme the "ascent" of Persephone and the
>> >> reunion
>> >> with her mother.
>> >> A sort of Gravity's Rainbow, right?  So maybe Mason's dark obsessions,
>> >> and
>> >> journeys, "by Ferry",  are him (as Demeter...), following Rebekah into
>> >> the
>> >> land of the dead (what's that do to a lens, I wonder...)?
>> >>
>> >> And the song?  I'm not sure who's narrating (I've got a sense there's a
>> >> parallax-type thing going on between us and Pynchon and Cherrycoke, who
>> >> reminds me a bit of the Cretan who tells us all Cretans are liars), but
>> >> it's
>> >> fun to imagine it with some oboe.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Feb 23, 2015, at 10:17 AM have a nice day, violet wrote this
>> >> message:),
>> >> <kelber at mindspring.com> <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Yes, two narrators, omniscient and Cherrycoke, the first of whom plays
>> >> with time and space; the second of whom alters facts to suit his
>> >> audience,
>> >> plays at biographer, and lapses into fantasies of other people's
>> >> fantasies,
>> >> thoughts and experiences.
>> >>
>> >> Laura
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >>
>> >> From: jochen stremmel
>> >>
>> >> Sent: Feb 23, 2015 12:33 PM
>> >>
>> >> To: Becky Lindroos
>> >>
>> >> Cc: kelber , pynchon -l
>> >>
>> >> Subject: Re: M&D - Chapter 11 pp 109-110
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I just have to figure there are "nested narrators"  in this book<
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Sorry if I am repeating myself but until now, p. 111, it seems to me
>> >> that
>> >> there are only two narrators, one Primary Narrator (to take Upton's
>> >> term),
>> >> that of the first sentence for example and of the bigger part of
>> >> paragraph 4
>> >> in chapter 3, to give another one, and Cherrycoke - and I wouldn't call
>> >> him
>> >> unreliable, not if the word should be more than a truism, because
>> >> everybody
>> >> - even TRP (who is no narrator but a storyteller, too (albeit a
>> >> storyteller
>> >> who gives us kind of a tapestry of realities)) - has his limits and we,
>> >> the
>> >> readers, have to decide if we should trust them or not.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> 2015-02-23 15:38 GMT+01:00 Becky Lindroos <bekker2 at icloud.com>:
>> >> On Feb 22, 2015, at 9:43 AM, kelber at mindspring.com wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I read the "Uncle, Uncle!" interjection as a sign that Cherrycoke had
>> >> lapsed into silent revery (or fantasy) about topics inappropriate for
>> >> his
>> >> audience.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> There's a passage on p. 111 (sorry to get ahead!): "Mason gapes in
>> >> despair. He'll be days late thinking up any reply to speech as
>> >> sophisticated
>> >> as this. 'In my experience,' he might say ..." But then Mason's whole
>> >> conversation with Florinda is recounted. Is the conversation still
>> >> conditional: these are the things that Mason might say? Or is this
>> >> Cherrycoke's version, aloud, or in revery?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Laura
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Could be!   I just have to figure there are "nested narrators"  in this
>> >> book and some of them are more apparent than others. I think I'll call
>> >> Cherrycoke the "story-teller" who becomes an "omniscient narrator"
>> >> while
>> >> he's telling much of the inner story.  But he and his audience are
>> >> "transported" to his fantasy-land so it all becomes a notch more
>> >> "real,"
>> >> especially in the case of Mason.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Mason has a huge memory section in a few chapters - when he meets
>> >> Rebekah
>> >> and the cheese rolling (one of my really favorite parts of the whole
>> >> book -
>> >> memorable).
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> From: Becky Lindroos <bekker2 at icloud.com>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Sent: Feb 22, 2015 11:39 AM
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> To: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Subject: M&D - Chapter 11 pp 109-110
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Continuing Chapter 11 - in St. Helena - with Maskelyne, Mason & Dixon -
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Page 109
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Visitors to St. Helena, especially women and other than slaves - almost
>> >> listed and compared to "Birds of Passage":
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Convicts
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Young Wives,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Company Perpetuals
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> (such shuttles upon the loom of Trade as Mrs. Rollright - ah - what an
>> >> apparently appropriate name)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Mrs. Rollright - aka Florinda - and she recognizes Mason -
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> *** Okay  - someone has to ask it - what's with the little ditties
>> >> strung
>> >> throughout - and throughout all of PYnchon's work - is this a nod to
>> >> Joyce
>> >> that really touched the spirit of Pynchon and he couldn't resist?
>> >> Parodies?
>> >> Parallax?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I can't copy anything from this source:  "Music in Thomas Pynchon's
>> >> Mason
>> >> & Dixon"  - it's 36 pages long including Notes.  I didn't have to
>> >> register
>> >> or anything like that - just asked for .pdf and scrolled down.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> https://www.pynchon.net/owap/article/view/75/170
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ***********
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "While other writers, like James Joyce, have invoked parallax as a
>> >> perspectival method in order to challenge univocal narrative form,
>> >> Pynchon
>> >> works the concept more radically into his fictional treatment of
>> >> historiography.[4] "
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> More at:  http://pmc.iath.virginia.edu/issue.903/14.1burns.html
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ****
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Page 110:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> **  Some omniscient narrator presents the backstory of Mason takes to
>> >> attending public hangings following Rebekah's death.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "Wapping was also the site of 'Execution Dock', where pirates and other
>> >> water-borne criminals faced execution by hanging from a gibbet
>> >> constructed
>> >> close to the low water mark. Their bodies would be left dangling until
>> >> they
>> >> had been submerged three times by the tide.[2]"
>> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wapping
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Lower-situated imitations of the "Hellfire Club"
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Hell-Fire Club -  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellfire_Club  (of the
>> >> times in England)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> also see:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> http://www.masondixon.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Chapter_11:_105-115#Page_110
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Hangings on Tyburn - here we have the famous gallows - ended in 1783
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyburn#Tyburn_gallows
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> And what a beautiful line:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ** "To the Fabulators of  Grub Street, a licentious night-world of
>> >> Rakes
>> >> and Whores, surviving only in memories of pleasure, small darting
>> >> winged
>> >> beings, untrustworthy as remembrancers ... "
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> (a nod to the untrustworthiness of memory)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Grub Street:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grub_Street
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> continuing:   "... yet its infected, fragrant, soiled encounters 'neath
>> >> the
>> >> Moon were as worthy as any, -  an evil-in-innocence..."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> (Even though untrustworthy,  memories are valuable in some way -
>> >> "evil-in-innocence"  because memories are like wolves in sheep's
>> >> clothing? -
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ******
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> And in a total discontinuance from the narrative although apparently in
>> >> response to it:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ("Uncle, Uncle!"... )  etc.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> This is Tenebræ and the Cherrycoke kids breaking in, isn't it?
>> >> Probably
>> >> because Cherrycoke is getting too close to subjects inappropriate for
>> >> the
>> >> ears of children?  -  "Rakes and Whores" and what not.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> *********
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Becky
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -
>> >>
>> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>> >> -
>> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>
>
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