M&D - Chapter 11 pp 109-110

Mark Kohut mark.kohut at gmail.com
Tue Feb 24 09:18:15 CST 2015 

CORRECTION:

"those life stories ARE real history and are NOT in HISTORY as told."

On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 10:15 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
> Yeah. worth pondering.
> another level of how real "reality' is not what is being told herein
> by whoever/both/all narrators?
> THAT quotidian story, Mason's fatherly life,
> those life stories, are NOT in real history?
>
> I get confused. What could such scenes mean IF they are 'tall tales'?
> And if NOT? They can't be "Reality, can they?." How does
> the sliding work?
>
> (In his book on Shakespeare, Tony Tanner elaborates on a Tennyson
> observation of a river into the sea...how dramatic is
> the space where they meet; how that changes the water junction
> depending on tides and river flow. )
>
> On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 9:53 AM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Allz I'm sayin is. these "out of character" glimpses of the
>> recently-bereaved Mason are the white dot within the black, the black dot
>> within the white, a nudge towards balancing of humors, or perhaps
>> enantiodromia. I realized this time through that they had entirely dropped
>> out of my image of Mason, but that won't happen again.
>>
>> It's also worth noticing that death-obsessed Chas married twice and fathered
>> eight children in all, while lively Jere died a bachelor and (as far as we
>> know) childless. Odd, that, if character is destiny,
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 7:03 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Whether Wicks or that 'other' narrator, my take is that Pynchon wanted
>>> to 'deepen' Mason's character with this Gothic death-love dimension of
>>> his grief. He hit it hard; pushed it, as is his wont, to an extreme;
>>> this scene comes close to one of the 'obscene ones in GR, I reckon.
>>> Grief for a loved one can make us feel 'half in love with easeful
>>> death'. Pynchon wanted to link such death love with the Puritan
>>> character, I suggest, with the Death drive as part of the attitudes to
>>> living that Mason & Dixon embody as they embody the range of a
>>> society, the society of the time and the US of A on the way---and to
>>> the present  in that parallax scope.
>>>
>>> And he brings in another life-loving woman(?) who gets a little wet
>>> thinking of the possible erections of the hanged and just brings that
>>> up with Mason, who gets chatted up a lot better at the hanging than he
>>> chats up.....exercising her female flirtatiousness.....
>>>
>>> Women in this book are all "like' Venuses..are just about all of them
>>> inciting sexual responses all the time, yes? More male fantasies of
>>> history, or any time, anywhere, I think the tale-telling set up clues
>>> us to. "French Women!"...Then there is Tenebrae.
>>> A pynchonian level that 'sez', women do want love...?
>>>
>>> As with metempsychosis, another Ulysses homage?
>>> -- There's one thing it hasn't a deterrent effect on, says Alf.
>>>
>>> -- What's that? says Joe.
>>>
>>> -- The poor bugger's tool that's being hanged, says Alf.
>>>
>>> -- That so? says Joe.
>>>
>>> -- God's truth, says Alf. I heard that from the head warder that was in
>>> Kilmainham when they hanged Joe Brady, the invincible. He told me when
>>> they cut him down after the drop it was standing up in their faces
>>> like a poker.
>>>
>>> -- Ruling passion strong in death, says Joe, as someone said.
>>>
>>> -- That can be explained by science, says Bloom. It's only a natural
>>> phenomenon, don't you see, because on account of the...
>>>
>>> And then he starts with his jawbreakers about phenomenon and science
>>> and this phenomenon and the other phenomenon.
>>>
>>> The distinguished scientist Herr Professor Luitpold Blumenduft
>>> tendered medical evidence to the effect that the instantaneous
>>> fracture of the cervical vertebrae and consequent scission of the
>>> spinal cord would, according to the best approved traditions of
>>> medical science, be calculated to inevitably produce in the human
>>> subject a violent ganglionic stimulus of the nerve centres, causing
>>> the pores of the cobra cavernosa to rapidly dilate in such a way as to
>>> instantaneously facilitate the flow of blood to that part of the human
>>> anatomy known as the penis or male organ resulting in the phenomenon
>>> which has been dominated by the faculty a morbid upwards and outwards
>>> philoprogenitive erection in articulo mortis per diminutionem capitis.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 3:41 PM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > DE> maybe Mason's dark obsessions, and journeys, "by Ferry",  are him
>>> > (as
>>> > Demeter...), following Rebekah into the land of the dead
>>> >
>>> > Orpheus going after Eurydice would require fewer sex changes, and P has
>>> > done
>>> > a lot with Orpheus before and since M&D. In general, my impression is
>>> > that
>>> > his underworld/afterlifes (possibly including the eleven days in this
>>> > book?
>>> > the Thanatoids? The revenant Reg Despard in BE? the interior of the
>>> > earth
>>> > here and in AtD?) lean more to a Greek Hades -- gray, joyless --  than
>>> > to a
>>> > Christian heaven or hell.
>>> >
>>> > And we're still left with the bottom of p. 110 -- if Wicks is narrating,
>>> > *after* he has been awakened and/or brought back to awareness that the
>>> > boys
>>> > are listening: "'Twas then Mason began his Practice, each Friday, of
>>> > going
>>> > out to the hangings at Tyburn, expressly to chat up women," and his
>>> > first
>>> > flirtatious encounter with Florinda, complete with discussion of how the
>>> > hanged are hung.
>>> >
>>> > The dichotomy of roistering good-time lad Dixon and mournful
>>> > Rebekah-fixated
>>> > Mason is so consistent throughout the book that this bit really stands
>>> > out
>>> > -- I think, is *meant* to stand out -- on subsequent readings. I can't
>>> > make
>>> > sense of it as gratuitous embroidery on Wicks' part, or as a tag-end of
>>> > some
>>> > alternate Masonic lifeline like the Sumatran fantasies.
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 2:38 PM, David Ewers <dsewers at comcast.net>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> While reading the passage about those "Birds of passage thro' St.
>>> >> Helena,"
>>> >> particularly the "Almost to a woman, they confess to strange and
>>> >> inexpressible Feelings when the
>>> >> ship makes landfall,-- the desolate line of peaks, the oceanic
>>> >> sunlight..." part, I got the image of so many Persephones in transit
>>> >> between
>>> >> the land of the living and the Underworld.  Under Eleusinian Mysteries,
>>> >> wikipedia describes the myth of Persephone and Demeter as:
>>> >>  "a cycle with three phases, the "descent" (loss), the "search" and the
>>> >> "ascent", with the main theme the "ascent" of Persephone and the
>>> >> reunion
>>> >> with her mother.
>>> >> A sort of Gravity's Rainbow, right?  So maybe Mason's dark obsessions,
>>> >> and
>>> >> journeys, "by Ferry",  are him (as Demeter...), following Rebekah into
>>> >> the
>>> >> land of the dead (what's that do to a lens, I wonder...)?
>>> >>
>>> >> And the song?  I'm not sure who's narrating (I've got a sense there's a
>>> >> parallax-type thing going on between us and Pynchon and Cherrycoke, who
>>> >> reminds me a bit of the Cretan who tells us all Cretans are liars), but
>>> >> it's
>>> >> fun to imagine it with some oboe.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On Feb 23, 2015, at 10:17 AM have a nice day, violet wrote this
>>> >> message:),
>>> >> <kelber at mindspring.com> <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Yes, two narrators, omniscient and Cherrycoke, the first of whom plays
>>> >> with time and space; the second of whom alters facts to suit his
>>> >> audience,
>>> >> plays at biographer, and lapses into fantasies of other people's
>>> >> fantasies,
>>> >> thoughts and experiences.
>>> >>
>>> >> Laura
>>> >>
>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>> >>
>>> >> From: jochen stremmel
>>> >>
>>> >> Sent: Feb 23, 2015 12:33 PM
>>> >>
>>> >> To: Becky Lindroos
>>> >>
>>> >> Cc: kelber , pynchon -l
>>> >>
>>> >> Subject: Re: M&D - Chapter 11 pp 109-110
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> I just have to figure there are "nested narrators"  in this book<
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Sorry if I am repeating myself but until now, p. 111, it seems to me
>>> >> that
>>> >> there are only two narrators, one Primary Narrator (to take Upton's
>>> >> term),
>>> >> that of the first sentence for example and of the bigger part of
>>> >> paragraph 4
>>> >> in chapter 3, to give another one, and Cherrycoke - and I wouldn't call
>>> >> him
>>> >> unreliable, not if the word should be more than a truism, because
>>> >> everybody
>>> >> - even TRP (who is no narrator but a storyteller, too (albeit a
>>> >> storyteller
>>> >> who gives us kind of a tapestry of realities)) - has his limits and we,
>>> >> the
>>> >> readers, have to decide if we should trust them or not.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> 2015-02-23 15:38 GMT+01:00 Becky Lindroos <bekker2 at icloud.com>:
>>> >> On Feb 22, 2015, at 9:43 AM, kelber at mindspring.com wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> I read the "Uncle, Uncle!" interjection as a sign that Cherrycoke had
>>> >> lapsed into silent revery (or fantasy) about topics inappropriate for
>>> >> his
>>> >> audience.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> There's a passage on p. 111 (sorry to get ahead!): "Mason gapes in
>>> >> despair. He'll be days late thinking up any reply to speech as
>>> >> sophisticated
>>> >> as this. 'In my experience,' he might say ..." But then Mason's whole
>>> >> conversation with Florinda is recounted. Is the conversation still
>>> >> conditional: these are the things that Mason might say? Or is this
>>> >> Cherrycoke's version, aloud, or in revery?
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Laura
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Could be!   I just have to figure there are "nested narrators"  in this
>>> >> book and some of them are more apparent than others. I think I'll call
>>> >> Cherrycoke the "story-teller" who becomes an "omniscient narrator"
>>> >> while
>>> >> he's telling much of the inner story.  But he and his audience are
>>> >> "transported" to his fantasy-land so it all becomes a notch more
>>> >> "real,"
>>> >> especially in the case of Mason.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Mason has a huge memory section in a few chapters - when he meets
>>> >> Rebekah
>>> >> and the cheese rolling (one of my really favorite parts of the whole
>>> >> book -
>>> >> memorable).
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> From: Becky Lindroos <bekker2 at icloud.com>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Sent: Feb 22, 2015 11:39 AM
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> To: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Subject: M&D - Chapter 11 pp 109-110
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Continuing Chapter 11 - in St. Helena - with Maskelyne, Mason & Dixon -
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Page 109
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Visitors to St. Helena, especially women and other than slaves - almost
>>> >> listed and compared to "Birds of Passage":
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Convicts
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Young Wives,
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Company Perpetuals
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> (such shuttles upon the loom of Trade as Mrs. Rollright - ah - what an
>>> >> apparently appropriate name)
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Mrs. Rollright - aka Florinda - and she recognizes Mason -
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> *** Okay  - someone has to ask it - what's with the little ditties
>>> >> strung
>>> >> throughout - and throughout all of PYnchon's work - is this a nod to
>>> >> Joyce
>>> >> that really touched the spirit of Pynchon and he couldn't resist?
>>> >> Parodies?
>>> >> Parallax?
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> I can't copy anything from this source:  "Music in Thomas Pynchon's
>>> >> Mason
>>> >> & Dixon"  - it's 36 pages long including Notes.  I didn't have to
>>> >> register
>>> >> or anything like that - just asked for .pdf and scrolled down.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> https://www.pynchon.net/owap/article/view/75/170
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> ***********
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> "While other writers, like James Joyce, have invoked parallax as a
>>> >> perspectival method in order to challenge univocal narrative form,
>>> >> Pynchon
>>> >> works the concept more radically into his fictional treatment of
>>> >> historiography.[4] "
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> More at:  http://pmc.iath.virginia.edu/issue.903/14.1burns.html
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> ****
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Page 110:
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> **  Some omniscient narrator presents the backstory of Mason takes to
>>> >> attending public hangings following Rebekah's death.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> "Wapping was also the site of 'Execution Dock', where pirates and other
>>> >> water-borne criminals faced execution by hanging from a gibbet
>>> >> constructed
>>> >> close to the low water mark. Their bodies would be left dangling until
>>> >> they
>>> >> had been submerged three times by the tide.[2]"
>>> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wapping
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Lower-situated imitations of the "Hellfire Club"
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Hell-Fire Club -  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellfire_Club  (of the
>>> >> times in England)
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> also see:
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> http://www.masondixon.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Chapter_11:_105-115#Page_110
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Hangings on Tyburn - here we have the famous gallows - ended in 1783
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyburn#Tyburn_gallows
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> And what a beautiful line:
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> ** "To the Fabulators of  Grub Street, a licentious night-world of
>>> >> Rakes
>>> >> and Whores, surviving only in memories of pleasure, small darting
>>> >> winged
>>> >> beings, untrustworthy as remembrancers ... "
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> (a nod to the untrustworthiness of memory)
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Grub Street:
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grub_Street
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> continuing:   "... yet its infected, fragrant, soiled encounters 'neath
>>> >> the
>>> >> Moon were as worthy as any, -  an evil-in-innocence..."
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> (Even though untrustworthy,  memories are valuable in some way -
>>> >> "evil-in-innocence"  because memories are like wolves in sheep's
>>> >> clothing? -
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> ******
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> And in a total discontinuance from the narrative although apparently in
>>> >> response to it:
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> ("Uncle, Uncle!"... )  etc.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> This is Tenebræ and the Cherrycoke kids breaking in, isn't it?
>>> >> Probably
>>> >> because Cherrycoke is getting too close to subjects inappropriate for
>>> >> the
>>> >> ears of children?  -  "Rakes and Whores" and what not.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> *********
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Becky
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> -
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> -
>>> >>
>>> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>> >> -
>>> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>
>>
-
Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l

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