M&D preambulatory profferings

Tue Jan 6 11:55:52 CST 2015

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.
On Jan 6, 2015 9:48 AM, <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:

> I agree that he's drawn to periods of cultural/technological change, but
> not out of a fascination with change, but because he's searching for the
> roots of the present. Going backwards in their respective time periods, GR,
> ATD and M&D seem to be a push backwards to search for the roots of the
> military/industrial/techno/capitalist/globalist super-power of the current
> day.
>
> Laura
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Johnny Marr
>
> Sent: Jan 5, 2015 10:26 PM
>
> To: Becky Lindroos
>
> Cc: Monte Davis , kelber , John Bailey , pynchon -l , Mark Kohut
>
> Subject: Re: M&D preambulatory profferings
>
>
>
> I think the broad unifying theme of Pynchon's work is American pioneerism.
> Whether M&D charting the New World, the terrifying onset of the atomic age
> in GR, the youth subculture of IV or the cybernet startups of BE, Pynchon
> is fascinated with American life on the frontier of technological and
> cultural changes.
>
> On Monday, January 5, 2015, Becky Lindroos <bekker2 at icloud.com> wrote:
> Um - it’s  a fine call but I’ll go with Laura about M&D being  “more
> American.”   The Colonists did not become Americans starting in July of
> 1776 or in 1775 (Lex & Concord), but about a bit over a decade prior to
> that.  (And I’d qualify that to say they became more Pennsylvanians or
> Marylanders or Virginians than “Americans”  -  as we think of the term.)
>  And it depends on what you mean by “American” -  the literal name or the
> distinctive culture?
>
>
>
> It’s often argued that it was during and just following the French and
> Indian War (7-Years War) that the interests and identification of the
> British colonists became more and more the interests of the “Americans" in
> nature.  The F&I War was between 1754 and 1763 and it set off several
> political issues including protection from Indians and  the anti-tax
> movement which united enough of the colonists to wage a successful war
> against the Brits.
>
>
>
> Some results of the F&I / 7-Years War:
>
>
>
> 1.  A LOT more French Catholics fell under British rule further
> internationalizing the colonists - and there were already a considerable
> number of Dutch in New York and Scots-Irish in Pennsylvania.
>
>
>
> 2.  The territories (“frontier”) expanded far west beyond the Appalachian
> and Allegheny Mountains which may have been British in name,  but new
> settlers from the colonies and Canada certainly developed their own
> socio-cultural-economic base.  The idea of the “frontier” (and boundaries)
> is certainly important.
>
>
>
> 3.  The Natives in the West and elsewhere, some allies of the  French some
> of the Brits/colonists, lost out tremendously in this expansion.  The
> Native tribes supposedly "gained” the Indian Reserve west of the
> Appalachian and Allegheny Mountains  (Ohio Valley and Great Lakes areas),
> but serious Indian fighting continued in a large area.  And more and more
> settlers left the actual Colonies to settle in the West.
>
>
>
> 4.  To say nothing of the Brits gaining Florida from Spain - (How British
> do you think those folks were?)
>
>
>
> 3.  The war cost a LOT of money and the Brits thought the Colonists should
> pay for it - hence the origins of the American Revolution -
>
>
>
> (For more on the above see Fred Anderson’s “The War that Made America: A
> Short History of the French and Indian War.”  (This is a shorter version of
> his pretty definitive work - “Crucible of War.”  - these are very good
> books but they are not “like a novel” in any way - they’re history
> text-type books.)
>
>
>
> 4. The French and Indian War ended the same year Mason & Dixon showed up
> in Philadelphia and it was into the area of this new frontier that they
> surveyed.
>
>
>
> **** A considerable amount of this is included in M&D.  French Jesuits,
> Natives, surveying, etc.  But it’s not the thrust, I don’t think -  just
> background.
>
>
>
> Later, the American connection includes the Mason & Dixon line and the
> issue of slavery.  This is what most Americans who know anything about the
> country’s history think of when they consider the line.
>
>
>
> Way too much info - sorry - I got into my thing -
>
> Bekah
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 4, 2015, at 7:12 PM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > LK > about two Brits making their way across an American landscape when
> it was still ostensibly British. In a way, it's about the moment when the
> British handed over the baton of colonialism to the Americans.
>
> >
>
> > I wonder if "more American" or "less American" are useful measures at
> all, and especially for M&D. The people in the Atlantic colonies of the
> 1750s Americans very definitely considered themselves British. As with
> speciation in biology, the "separation" is incremental, and most of its
> meaning is projected retrospectively.
>
> >
>
> > We see the early days of that retrospect, but inevitably our own sense
> of "British" and "American" are freighted with two additional centuries of
> divergence the characters in M&D hadn't known.
>
> >
>
> > On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 1:57 PM, <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> > After the disappointment with Vineland (which has since grown in my
> esteem), I was thrilled to read M&D - back to the lush language and deeper
> themes of his earlier books. But all those Caps and ampersands are
> off-putting to any reader, but especially to (let's face it)us stupid
> Americans, who are rarely fluent in a second language (guilty!). The text
> is as off-putting as Chaucer, at first glance - fodder for a college
> seminar, but not, perhaps the book you grab on the way out the door to read
> on the subway. Much as I enjoyed the book, this group read is only my
> second go-round. Looking forward to it.
>
> >
>
> > Is it more uniquely American than his other works? Hardly (see stupid
> American reference above). Yes, Mason & Dixon immediately equals the
> Mason-Dixon line in the American mind. My first thought on seeing the title
> was that it was going to be a novel about the Civil War. And of course,
> that looms over the whole book, which is very much about borders as
> instruments of racism and colonialism. But it's about two Brits making
> their way across an American landscape when it was still ostensibly
> British. In a way, it's about the moment when the British handed over the
> baton of colonialism to the Americans. The line at the time it was drawn
> was purely a British bit of business. Most Americans are surprised that
> it's between Pennsylvania and Maryland, assuming that it's somehow much
> farther down south.
>
> >
>
> > Mark, you're a Pennsylvanian? Does crossing the border into Maryland
> have any particular significance for you? I'm guessing not much.
>
> >
>
> > Mason & Dixon is about the significance of a line, just as V is about
> the convergence of two lines, and Gravity's Rainbow is about the parabola.
> Pynchon loves geometry. He may have been attracted to the story because of
> the line. But in finishing it when he did, after becoming a husband and
> father, it became something else - a novel of family and friendship -
> something he was grasping at in Vineland, but perfected here. Between
> geometry, racism, colonialism and affection - don't think there's anything
> uniquely American in M&D. Vineland, ATD and IV are all more American, in my
> opinion.
>
> >
>
> > Laura
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > -----Original Message-----
>
> > >From: John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com>
>
> > >Sent: Jan 4, 2015 5:49 AM
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> > >I'd love to hear some words from those who already hold this book
>
> > >close to their hearts. There are a lot of veteran P-listers who put
>
> > >the novel near (even higher than!) Gravity's Rainbow in that friendly
>
> > >fascist framework we call Favourites.
>
> > >
>
> > >Me, I've never dig-dug the book the way I dig-do V. or GR or VL or BE
>
> > >but I've always put that down to personal experience or font-size or
>
> > >perhaps cultural materialism.
>
> > >
>
> > >But mostly I've put it down to the fact that I've never been to the US
>
> > >(outside of a TV or cinema screen). I have no deep, internalised,
>
> > >situated knowledge of America and the shouted and whispered
>
> > >conversation it has been having with its divided selves for so many
>
> > >centuries. Some other non-US readers here have professed their
>
> > >appreciation of the book so I'm not claiming this is an American-only
>
> > >novel.
>
> > >
>
> > >STILL: I would really love to hear people throw out a few lines
>
> > >describing what this Pynchon novel is. I want to hear love songs to
>
> > >the thing, though I feel my ear is tinny and poorly tuned. Ring true!
>
> > >-
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > -
>
> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>
> >
>
>
>
> -
>
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> -
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>
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