M & D Deep Duck Read. Pop quiz

Mark Kohut mark.kohut at gmail.com
Tue Jan 6 15:34:30 CST 2015 

real fine and I have mostly sided with my own expressed understanding.
BUT, TRP himself, calls Cherrycoke a Bad Rememberer....
The kids' interjections accent the excitements they are looking for in
the Story.

And there is the Other narrator telling the book's story...........

On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 4:15 PM, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com> wrote:
> Fine question by MTS.
>
> The Cherrycoke-as-narrator thing has never entirely worked for me as
> the narratorial voice is so clearly one of our author's (many), not a
> character. That internal frame, a story told to children, is only ever
> explicitly referred to a tiny number of times, so it hardly feels as
> if it's of any significance. And the typically Pynchon-tome
> digressions (the secret conversation between clocks in a ship's
> nethers, for instance) make the voice more "sweeping and
> hallucinatory" than any single narrator should be, unless they want to
> claim that psychedelic omniscience of Pynchon's big novels.
>
> On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 7:38 AM, M Thomas Stevenson
> <m.thomas.stevenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> *Katje -- autocorrect
>>
>> On 6 January 2015, at 20:36, M Thomas Stevenson <m.thomas.stevenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> -- This is actually a Q I wanted to throw out: It seems like there's a certain mode for Pynchon that's much more based in the limited-third, reserved for what I'd say are his "lighter" (physically/tone?) works (COTL49, IV, BE), and that he goes into a much more sweeping and hallucinatory, unreliable-ish voice for the Tomes (not to denigrate or underestimate the aforementioned works, and the two Vs are maybe the exceptions here). BUT, the Q is, with the Cherrycoke frame do you think it falls more on the side of concretely-unreliable (poss. spoiler: talking dog) or more in the tone of GR, which was I'd say actually more reliable, even though it dribbled through a host of minds (the still-astonishing Filming Katie wormhole comes to mind). . . ?
>>
>> On 6 January 2015, at 20:24, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> yes, I say, yes....The States were full of deep, old Britishness...who
>> better to see it than them?
>> Cherrycoke can't. So, is this part of his unreliability which we have
>> to see through via Chas and Jer?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 3:17 PM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Good stuff. A possibly countervailing sidelight: as a child I read few comic
>>> books and (after age 10 or so) watched little TV animation, but some of
>>> their appeal must have lurked until I looked at Japanimation over my sons'
>>> shoulders in the 1990s. I've happily binged on Cowboy Bebop, Neon Genesis
>>> Evangelion, Mushishi, TekkonKinkreet, Attack on Titan, Steyns;Gate, and
>>> love Miyazaki even more than classic Disney -- all of which are as
>>> juvenile/adolescent as can be, but fresh and interesting to me because of
>>> the different cultural seasoning. It's very specific -- I have no broader
>>> penchant for either traditional or modern Japanese culture.
>>>
>>> Maybe a phenomenon like the "British invasion" of 1960s rock, which was
>>> mostly our own R&B / boogie / soul / electric blues coming back at us in
>>> Merseyside and East End accents?
>>>
>>> And maybe in M&D, we should be alert not just for signs of incipient
>>> American-ness, but for deep old British-ness -- Blake's Albion, not George
>>> III's United Kingdom -- that appears fresh and strange to Chas and Jer
>>> because of its new setting?
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 2:38 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Ah, I knew my early morning improvised offhand mention of movies would
>>>> be challenged. I thought I might have to argue
>>>> that, well, Pynchon watches comics, and he does.
>>>>
>>>> 1st, you and I Monte have agreed on the selection effect in the past.
>>>> I do not think it applies against my remark--which
>>>> was lame and should have been much fuller--and I will fill it out. In
>>>> fact, I think your presentation of what you (and others--like me)
>>>> might watch makes my case in a way. Becasue you choose not to be
>>>> immersed (with your essential sensibility) in the wide-spread
>>>> "juvenile"---I now like 'adolescent" better and shoudl have used that
>>>> word---culture, you are seeing it too, no?
>>>>
>>>> I was saying it pervades the America we know. I was thinking of how
>>>> whole huge industries, such as Hollywood, see it and help create it.
>>>> Publishing too, altho it is
>>>> not huge but it plants those cultural seeds. I should have talked
>>>> about, for example, how many adults we all know defend reading and
>>>> rereading YA books; about how many
>>>> women our age and younger think their 'men' are overgrown boys (a
>>>> cultural trope fer sure). i am talking about video games; yes, and
>>>> also those action and overgrown boys-as-men
>>>> with superskills action movies.
>>>>
>>>> What is most important in my remarks about this in M &D is that I
>>>> never contrasted Cherrycoke's 'storytelling art' with some higher
>>>> artistic period.No Golden Age against the present (of the novel) day.
>>>>  In fact, my
>>>> judgment of one major part of Pynchon's meaning here is that EVEN THEN
>>>> we, as a generalized nation, wanted our history told as adventure to
>>>> adolescents, he is always saying. I was
>>>> a--glow with this new-to-me (In M &D) possible theme. It is there fer
>>>> sure in AtD, yes?
>>>>
>>>> That 'adolescent' cultures are what many--most--all-- cultures'
>>>> stories are, is probably true but again, does not work against---he
>>>> takes the trope global, universal in AtD! ---but here it is
>>>> about incipient Americans. Then
>>>>
>>>> And now. (Romance as a genre, P's kind of loose, associative symbolic
>>>> fictions, veer toward, like a controlled balloon, finding mythic
>>>> patterns.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> > MK>...but haven't we all felt that so much that happens in American
>>>> > society,
>>>> > in its movies, etc. is........juvenile in its
>>>> > appeal?
>>>> >
>>>> > Yes, but at least some of that comes from seeing it all. This American
>>>> > tends
>>>> > to see only the most acclaimed Swedish and Japanese movies, read only
>>>> > the
>>>> > most acclaimed Nigerian and Pakistani books -- not the far more
>>>> > numerous,
>>>> > run-of-the-mill offerings that are, I'm sure, the despair of elite
>>>> > Swedish,
>>>> > Japanese, Nigerian and Pakistani cultural consumers.
>>>> >
>>>> > The selection effect works in time as well as space. Many laments about
>>>> > mass
>>>> > culture, about the decline of art and taste since [insert Golden Age
>>>> > here],
>>>> > tell us only that educated people have encountered the classics
>>>> > surviving --
>>>> > by definition --  from earlier eras, not the clunkers everyone has
>>>> > forgotten. As you know better than I, Mark, the best-seller lists -- and
>>>> > even the high-culture award lists -- of bygone times yield many WTF?!?
>>>> > moments.
>>>> >
>>>> > Maybe most of most cultures everywhere and everywhen is "juvenile"
>>>> > because
>>>> > "mature" -- aka elite -- culture requires both the opportunity and the
>>>> > desire to continue exploration, education (institutional or
>>>> > autodidactic),
>>>> > and reflection beyond adolescence.
>>>> >
>>>> > On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 7:25 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Wonderfullll!....psychometrist, a devolution?--Pynchon's usual way
>>>> >> with descendants--from storyteller of adolescent psychology.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Which leads me to THIS: The Rev is telling this story to entertain
>>>> >> three
>>>> >> kids!
>>>> >> (He must or they will stop him). So, an exciting plot-drive story.
>>>> >> full of 'Crimes!" shout the boys.
>>>> >> Wanting their Youthful conceptions---their
>>>> >> stereotypes--"Frenchwomen!", their boyish, uneducated (much)
>>>> >> desires and lusts.......slated.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I, for one, have long thought America as a generalized sensibility, is
>>>> >> adolescent in essence. (Real cultural commentators
>>>> >> have made this point, from whom I've got it, of course, but haven't we
>>>> >> all felt that so much that happens in
>>>> >> American society, in its movies, etc. is........juvenile in its
>>>> >> appeal?) I suggest TRP is putting that down as
>>>> >> well.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> So, I am reminded of the adventure stories that are The Chums of
>>>> >> Chance's adventures. Special Operations Executive...an
>>>> >> echo---foreecho?--of the Special Operations of the Chums?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 5:59 AM, Elisabeth Romberg <eromberg at mac.com>
>>>> >> wrote:
>>>> >> > According to Joakim Sigvardson <<(t)he Reverend Wicks Cherrycoke is
>>>> >> > possibly
>>>> >> > a forefather of Ronald Cherrycoke (...) in (GR). The latter is a
>>>> >> > <<noted
>>>> >> > psychometrist>> (p. 146), a spiritual medium employed by the
>>>> >> > Psychological
>>>> >> > Intelligence Schemes for Expecting Surrender at the White Visitation,
>>>> >> > (...) on
>>>> >> > the coast of Southern England. The White Visitation was formerly a
>>>> >> > mental
>>>> >> > hospital but when Ronald Cherrycoke and PISCES inhabit it during the
>>>> >> > (WWII),
>>>> >> > it is part of the Special Operations Executive."
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Source: Immanence and Trenscendence in Thomas Pynchon's Mason &
>>>> >> > Dixon,
>>>> >> > published by Stockholm University, 2002, p. 81.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Also, could the 'omnipresent narrator' be Tenebrae somehow?
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > 6. jan. 2015 kl. 02.35 skrev John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com>:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Ooops, reply all.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>> >> > From: John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com>
>>>> >> > Date: Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 12:35 PM
>>>> >> > Subject: Re: M & D Deep Duck Read. Pop quiz
>>>> >> > To: Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > I always thought it was Roland. Huh.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Shades of Ronald McDonald mixed in with Coca-Cola? Hardly positive
>>>> >> > associations in a P novel.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > One is ostensibly a man of God, another a man of medicine, but unless
>>>> >> > I'm mistaken neither is particularly faithful to their role. They're
>>>> >> > both kind of hucksters, kind of woo woo, kind of jokers, right?
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Although inspired by the discussion of wood in the first chapter,
>>>> >> > maybe the coke in Cherrycoke could be read as the combustible fuel
>>>> >> > coke. So it's like cherry tree wood used for burning purposes. A slow
>>>> >> > burning wood according to the great lord google.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Goes with Wicks and also Tenebrae (and I swear I went down a
>>>> >> > rabbit-hole during my first read regarding names and light-sources in
>>>> >> > M&D).
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 12:23 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > what is the relation of Rev Cherrycoke to Ronald in GR?, that is why
>>>> >> > did P echo the name? Cherrycoke, Ronald
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > 125; psychometrist in Psi Section; 146; "undertakes. . .trips into
>>>> >> > Nora Dodson-Truck's void, " 150; "in a Jesus Christ getup" 639
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 4:36 PM,  <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Hello back, David! That dovetails with my view that Cherrycoke is
>>>> >> > Pynchon's
>>>> >> > stand-in - Pynchon once young, wayward and reclusive, now that nigh
>>>> >> > many
>>>> >> > years have come and gone, drawn inward to the family hearth to tell
>>>> >> > stories.
>>>> >> > Not that different from what he's doing (as omniscient narrator)in
>>>> >> > Inherent
>>>> >> > Vice - telling stories of his youth from the new perspective of
>>>> >> > family
>>>> >> > man.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Laura
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > From: David Ewers <dsewers at comcast.net>
>>>> >> > Sent: Jan 5, 2015 4:01 PM
>>>> >> > To: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>>>> >> > Cc: Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>> >> > Subject: Re: M & D Deep Duck Read. Pop quiz
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Hello,
>>>> >> > Thanks for setting up this group reading.  This will be my second
>>>> >> > reading of
>>>> >> > M-&D- (my first was when it came out) but my first time publicly
>>>> >> > discussing
>>>> >> > it (or any Pynchon book, for that matter...), so I beg your pardon in
>>>> >> > advance for my hamfistedness.
>>>> >> > I was wondering about the Cherrycoke frame as well.  Are there other
>>>> >> > Pynchon
>>>> >> > books that start this way, looking back from a comfortable future?  I
>>>> >> > can't
>>>> >> > think of one.
>>>> >> > If  Cherrycoke is a stand-in for Mr. Pynchon, could the framing have
>>>> >> > something to do with the idea I've read (eavesdropped) here, that
>>>> >> > Pynchon
>>>> >> > started M-&D- many years earlier, set it aside to do other things
>>>> >> > (Vineland?), and returned to it later from a different place in a
>>>> >> > different
>>>> >> > America?  In M-&D-, there's the twenty year span from the tale (1766)
>>>> >> > to
>>>> >> > the
>>>> >> > telling (1786).  It seems to me that those years fairly well match
>>>> >> > with
>>>> >> > the
>>>> >> > twenty years Rip Van Winkle slept; also roughly the years from
>>>> >> > Gravity's
>>>> >> > Rainbow to M-&D- (...when we all slept?).  I'm not sure how fruitful
>>>> >> > it
>>>> >> > is
>>>> >> > to draw too many autobiographic connections, especially when there's
>>>> >> > so
>>>> >> > much
>>>> >> > rich stuff to dig around in here, but I figure I'd throw it out
>>>> >> > there.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > On Jan 5, 2015, at 10:54 AM, Mark Kohut wrote:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > A + +
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Why did he not have Cherrycoke tell it all, ya think? and.... that
>>>> >> > old
>>>> >> > modernist staple [started with The Good Soldier] of
>>>> >> > ye unreliable narrator......wha?
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > p. 8 "stoven, dismasted, imbecile with age---an untrustworthy
>>>> >> > Remembrancer [see---all on the surface]
>>>> >> > for whom the few events yet rattling within a broken mamory must
>>>> >> > provide the only comfort no remaining to him,---
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 1:27 PM,  <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > All I see is the Omniscient Narrator handing off to Cherrycoke here.
>>>> >> > Are
>>>> >> > you
>>>> >> > talking about the book as a whole, or just this section?
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Cherrycoke is a stand-in for Pynchon himself, perhaps? Family
>>>> >> > outcast,
>>>> >> > paid
>>>> >> > money to keep away? Well, no. But famous reclusive, one-time writer
>>>> >> > of
>>>> >> > something labeled "obscene," long-time bachelor, no real job other
>>>> >> > than
>>>> >> > being a highly-paid (relative to most working drones) writer, now
>>>> >> > ensconced
>>>> >> > solidly within a family setting and telling a tale.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > LK
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > From: Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>> >> > Sent: Jan 5, 2015 1:00 PM
>>>> >> > To: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>>>> >> > Subject: M & D Deep Duck Read. Pop quiz
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Who is narrating?, or should that be Who are narrating?
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > And what does that imply, maybe, in various ways, about the tale?
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > 25 words or fewer..
>>>> >> > -
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>>>> >> >
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>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > -
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>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > -
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>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > -
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>>>> >> >
>>>> >> -
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>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>
>>>
>> -
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