M & D Deep Duck Read. Pop quiz

Mark Kohut mark.kohut at gmail.com
Tue Jan 6 15:56:23 CST 2015 

Nother unreliable narrator...

But standard bios say he was raised Catholic. How fervent, how deep,
how whatever then is an open question.

On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 4:52 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
> I seem to remember thinking that he tells many stories about events that he
> couldn't possibly have been there to witness.
>
> David Morris
>
> On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 3:34 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> real fine and I have mostly sided with my own expressed understanding.
>> BUT, TRP himself, calls Cherrycoke a Bad Rememberer....
>> The kids' interjections accent the excitements they are looking for in
>> the Story.
>>
>> And there is the Other narrator telling the book's story...........
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 4:15 PM, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Fine question by MTS.
>> >
>> > The Cherrycoke-as-narrator thing has never entirely worked for me as
>> > the narratorial voice is so clearly one of our author's (many), not a
>> > character. That internal frame, a story told to children, is only ever
>> > explicitly referred to a tiny number of times, so it hardly feels as
>> > if it's of any significance. And the typically Pynchon-tome
>> > digressions (the secret conversation between clocks in a ship's
>> > nethers, for instance) make the voice more "sweeping and
>> > hallucinatory" than any single narrator should be, unless they want to
>> > claim that psychedelic omniscience of Pynchon's big novels.
>> >
>> > On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 7:38 AM, M Thomas Stevenson
>> > <m.thomas.stevenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> *Katje -- autocorrect
>> >>
>> >> On 6 January 2015, at 20:36, M Thomas Stevenson
>> >> <m.thomas.stevenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> -- This is actually a Q I wanted to throw out: It seems like there's a
>> >> certain mode for Pynchon that's much more based in the limited-third,
>> >> reserved for what I'd say are his "lighter" (physically/tone?) works
>> >> (COTL49, IV, BE), and that he goes into a much more sweeping and
>> >> hallucinatory, unreliable-ish voice for the Tomes (not to denigrate or
>> >> underestimate the aforementioned works, and the two Vs are maybe the
>> >> exceptions here). BUT, the Q is, with the Cherrycoke frame do you think it
>> >> falls more on the side of concretely-unreliable (poss. spoiler: talking dog)
>> >> or more in the tone of GR, which was I'd say actually more reliable, even
>> >> though it dribbled through a host of minds (the still-astonishing Filming
>> >> Katie wormhole comes to mind). . . ?
>> >>
>> >> On 6 January 2015, at 20:24, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> yes, I say, yes....The States were full of deep, old Britishness...who
>> >> better to see it than them?
>> >> Cherrycoke can't. So, is this part of his unreliability which we have
>> >> to see through via Chas and Jer?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 3:17 PM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>> Good stuff. A possibly countervailing sidelight: as a child I read few
>> >>> comic
>> >>> books and (after age 10 or so) watched little TV animation, but some
>> >>> of
>> >>> their appeal must have lurked until I looked at Japanimation over my
>> >>> sons'
>> >>> shoulders in the 1990s. I've happily binged on Cowboy Bebop, Neon
>> >>> Genesis
>> >>> Evangelion, Mushishi, TekkonKinkreet, Attack on Titan, Steyns;Gate,
>> >>> and
>> >>> love Miyazaki even more than classic Disney -- all of which are as
>> >>> juvenile/adolescent as can be, but fresh and interesting to me because
>> >>> of
>> >>> the different cultural seasoning. It's very specific -- I have no
>> >>> broader
>> >>> penchant for either traditional or modern Japanese culture.
>> >>>
>> >>> Maybe a phenomenon like the "British invasion" of 1960s rock, which
>> >>> was
>> >>> mostly our own R&B / boogie / soul / electric blues coming back at us
>> >>> in
>> >>> Merseyside and East End accents?
>> >>>
>> >>> And maybe in M&D, we should be alert not just for signs of incipient
>> >>> American-ness, but for deep old British-ness -- Blake's Albion, not
>> >>> George
>> >>> III's United Kingdom -- that appears fresh and strange to Chas and Jer
>> >>> because of its new setting?
>> >>>
>> >>> On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 2:38 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Ah, I knew my early morning improvised offhand mention of movies
>> >>>> would
>> >>>> be challenged. I thought I might have to argue
>> >>>> that, well, Pynchon watches comics, and he does.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> 1st, you and I Monte have agreed on the selection effect in the past.
>> >>>> I do not think it applies against my remark--which
>> >>>> was lame and should have been much fuller--and I will fill it out. In
>> >>>> fact, I think your presentation of what you (and others--like me)
>> >>>> might watch makes my case in a way. Becasue you choose not to be
>> >>>> immersed (with your essential sensibility) in the wide-spread
>> >>>> "juvenile"---I now like 'adolescent" better and shoudl have used that
>> >>>> word---culture, you are seeing it too, no?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I was saying it pervades the America we know. I was thinking of how
>> >>>> whole huge industries, such as Hollywood, see it and help create it.
>> >>>> Publishing too, altho it is
>> >>>> not huge but it plants those cultural seeds. I should have talked
>> >>>> about, for example, how many adults we all know defend reading and
>> >>>> rereading YA books; about how many
>> >>>> women our age and younger think their 'men' are overgrown boys (a
>> >>>> cultural trope fer sure). i am talking about video games; yes, and
>> >>>> also those action and overgrown boys-as-men
>> >>>> with superskills action movies.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> What is most important in my remarks about this in M &D is that I
>> >>>> never contrasted Cherrycoke's 'storytelling art' with some higher
>> >>>> artistic period.No Golden Age against the present (of the novel) day.
>> >>>>  In fact, my
>> >>>> judgment of one major part of Pynchon's meaning here is that EVEN
>> >>>> THEN
>> >>>> we, as a generalized nation, wanted our history told as adventure to
>> >>>> adolescents, he is always saying. I was
>> >>>> a--glow with this new-to-me (In M &D) possible theme. It is there fer
>> >>>> sure in AtD, yes?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> That 'adolescent' cultures are what many--most--all-- cultures'
>> >>>> stories are, is probably true but again, does not work against---he
>> >>>> takes the trope global, universal in AtD! ---but here it is
>> >>>> about incipient Americans. Then
>> >>>>
>> >>>> And now. (Romance as a genre, P's kind of loose, associative symbolic
>> >>>> fictions, veer toward, like a controlled balloon, finding mythic
>> >>>> patterns.)
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>> > MK>...but haven't we all felt that so much that happens in American
>> >>>> > society,
>> >>>> > in its movies, etc. is........juvenile in its
>> >>>> > appeal?
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Yes, but at least some of that comes from seeing it all. This
>> >>>> > American
>> >>>> > tends
>> >>>> > to see only the most acclaimed Swedish and Japanese movies, read
>> >>>> > only
>> >>>> > the
>> >>>> > most acclaimed Nigerian and Pakistani books -- not the far more
>> >>>> > numerous,
>> >>>> > run-of-the-mill offerings that are, I'm sure, the despair of elite
>> >>>> > Swedish,
>> >>>> > Japanese, Nigerian and Pakistani cultural consumers.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > The selection effect works in time as well as space. Many laments
>> >>>> > about
>> >>>> > mass
>> >>>> > culture, about the decline of art and taste since [insert Golden
>> >>>> > Age
>> >>>> > here],
>> >>>> > tell us only that educated people have encountered the classics
>> >>>> > surviving --
>> >>>> > by definition --  from earlier eras, not the clunkers everyone has
>> >>>> > forgotten. As you know better than I, Mark, the best-seller lists
>> >>>> > -- and
>> >>>> > even the high-culture award lists -- of bygone times yield many
>> >>>> > WTF?!?
>> >>>> > moments.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Maybe most of most cultures everywhere and everywhen is "juvenile"
>> >>>> > because
>> >>>> > "mature" -- aka elite -- culture requires both the opportunity and
>> >>>> > the
>> >>>> > desire to continue exploration, education (institutional or
>> >>>> > autodidactic),
>> >>>> > and reflection beyond adolescence.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 7:25 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> >>>> > wrote:
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> Wonderfullll!....psychometrist, a devolution?--Pynchon's usual way
>> >>>> >> with descendants--from storyteller of adolescent psychology.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> Which leads me to THIS: The Rev is telling this story to entertain
>> >>>> >> three
>> >>>> >> kids!
>> >>>> >> (He must or they will stop him). So, an exciting plot-drive story.
>> >>>> >> full of 'Crimes!" shout the boys.
>> >>>> >> Wanting their Youthful conceptions---their
>> >>>> >> stereotypes--"Frenchwomen!", their boyish, uneducated (much)
>> >>>> >> desires and lusts.......slated.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> I, for one, have long thought America as a generalized
>> >>>> >> sensibility, is
>> >>>> >> adolescent in essence. (Real cultural commentators
>> >>>> >> have made this point, from whom I've got it, of course, but
>> >>>> >> haven't we
>> >>>> >> all felt that so much that happens in
>> >>>> >> American society, in its movies, etc. is........juvenile in its
>> >>>> >> appeal?) I suggest TRP is putting that down as
>> >>>> >> well.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> So, I am reminded of the adventure stories that are The Chums of
>> >>>> >> Chance's adventures. Special Operations Executive...an
>> >>>> >> echo---foreecho?--of the Special Operations of the Chums?
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >> On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 5:59 AM, Elisabeth Romberg
>> >>>> >> <eromberg at mac.com>
>> >>>> >> wrote:
>> >>>> >> > According to Joakim Sigvardson <<(t)he Reverend Wicks Cherrycoke
>> >>>> >> > is
>> >>>> >> > possibly
>> >>>> >> > a forefather of Ronald Cherrycoke (...) in (GR). The latter is a
>> >>>> >> > <<noted
>> >>>> >> > psychometrist>> (p. 146), a spiritual medium employed by the
>> >>>> >> > Psychological
>> >>>> >> > Intelligence Schemes for Expecting Surrender at the White
>> >>>> >> > Visitation,
>> >>>> >> > (...) on
>> >>>> >> > the coast of Southern England. The White Visitation was formerly
>> >>>> >> > a
>> >>>> >> > mental
>> >>>> >> > hospital but when Ronald Cherrycoke and PISCES inhabit it during
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > (WWII),
>> >>>> >> > it is part of the Special Operations Executive."
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Source: Immanence and Trenscendence in Thomas Pynchon's Mason &
>> >>>> >> > Dixon,
>> >>>> >> > published by Stockholm University, 2002, p. 81.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Also, could the 'omnipresent narrator' be Tenebrae somehow?
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > 6. jan. 2015 kl. 02.35 skrev John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com>:
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Ooops, reply all.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> >>>> >> > From: John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com>
>> >>>> >> > Date: Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 12:35 PM
>> >>>> >> > Subject: Re: M & D Deep Duck Read. Pop quiz
>> >>>> >> > To: Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > I always thought it was Roland. Huh.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Shades of Ronald McDonald mixed in with Coca-Cola? Hardly
>> >>>> >> > positive
>> >>>> >> > associations in a P novel.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > One is ostensibly a man of God, another a man of medicine, but
>> >>>> >> > unless
>> >>>> >> > I'm mistaken neither is particularly faithful to their role.
>> >>>> >> > They're
>> >>>> >> > both kind of hucksters, kind of woo woo, kind of jokers, right?
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Although inspired by the discussion of wood in the first
>> >>>> >> > chapter,
>> >>>> >> > maybe the coke in Cherrycoke could be read as the combustible
>> >>>> >> > fuel
>> >>>> >> > coke. So it's like cherry tree wood used for burning purposes. A
>> >>>> >> > slow
>> >>>> >> > burning wood according to the great lord google.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Goes with Wicks and also Tenebrae (and I swear I went down a
>> >>>> >> > rabbit-hole during my first read regarding names and
>> >>>> >> > light-sources in
>> >>>> >> > M&D).
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 12:23 PM, Mark Kohut
>> >>>> >> > <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> >>>> >> > wrote:
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > what is the relation of Rev Cherrycoke to Ronald in GR?, that is
>> >>>> >> > why
>> >>>> >> > did P echo the name? Cherrycoke, Ronald
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > 125; psychometrist in Psi Section; 146; "undertakes. . .trips
>> >>>> >> > into
>> >>>> >> > Nora Dodson-Truck's void, " 150; "in a Jesus Christ getup" 639
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 4:36 PM,  <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Hello back, David! That dovetails with my view that Cherrycoke
>> >>>> >> > is
>> >>>> >> > Pynchon's
>> >>>> >> > stand-in - Pynchon once young, wayward and reclusive, now that
>> >>>> >> > nigh
>> >>>> >> > many
>> >>>> >> > years have come and gone, drawn inward to the family hearth to
>> >>>> >> > tell
>> >>>> >> > stories.
>> >>>> >> > Not that different from what he's doing (as omniscient
>> >>>> >> > narrator)in
>> >>>> >> > Inherent
>> >>>> >> > Vice - telling stories of his youth from the new perspective of
>> >>>> >> > family
>> >>>> >> > man.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Laura
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > From: David Ewers <dsewers at comcast.net>
>> >>>> >> > Sent: Jan 5, 2015 4:01 PM
>> >>>> >> > To: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>> >>>> >> > Cc: Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> >>>> >> > Subject: Re: M & D Deep Duck Read. Pop quiz
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Hello,
>> >>>> >> > Thanks for setting up this group reading.  This will be my
>> >>>> >> > second
>> >>>> >> > reading of
>> >>>> >> > M-&D- (my first was when it came out) but my first time publicly
>> >>>> >> > discussing
>> >>>> >> > it (or any Pynchon book, for that matter...), so I beg your
>> >>>> >> > pardon in
>> >>>> >> > advance for my hamfistedness.
>> >>>> >> > I was wondering about the Cherrycoke frame as well.  Are there
>> >>>> >> > other
>> >>>> >> > Pynchon
>> >>>> >> > books that start this way, looking back from a comfortable
>> >>>> >> > future?  I
>> >>>> >> > can't
>> >>>> >> > think of one.
>> >>>> >> > If  Cherrycoke is a stand-in for Mr. Pynchon, could the framing
>> >>>> >> > have
>> >>>> >> > something to do with the idea I've read (eavesdropped) here,
>> >>>> >> > that
>> >>>> >> > Pynchon
>> >>>> >> > started M-&D- many years earlier, set it aside to do other
>> >>>> >> > things
>> >>>> >> > (Vineland?), and returned to it later from a different place in
>> >>>> >> > a
>> >>>> >> > different
>> >>>> >> > America?  In M-&D-, there's the twenty year span from the tale
>> >>>> >> > (1766)
>> >>>> >> > to
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > telling (1786).  It seems to me that those years fairly well
>> >>>> >> > match
>> >>>> >> > with
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > twenty years Rip Van Winkle slept; also roughly the years from
>> >>>> >> > Gravity's
>> >>>> >> > Rainbow to M-&D- (...when we all slept?).  I'm not sure how
>> >>>> >> > fruitful
>> >>>> >> > it
>> >>>> >> > is
>> >>>> >> > to draw too many autobiographic connections, especially when
>> >>>> >> > there's
>> >>>> >> > so
>> >>>> >> > much
>> >>>> >> > rich stuff to dig around in here, but I figure I'd throw it out
>> >>>> >> > there.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > On Jan 5, 2015, at 10:54 AM, Mark Kohut wrote:
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > A + +
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Why did he not have Cherrycoke tell it all, ya think? and....
>> >>>> >> > that
>> >>>> >> > old
>> >>>> >> > modernist staple [started with The Good Soldier] of
>> >>>> >> > ye unreliable narrator......wha?
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > p. 8 "stoven, dismasted, imbecile with age---an untrustworthy
>> >>>> >> > Remembrancer [see---all on the surface]
>> >>>> >> > for whom the few events yet rattling within a broken mamory must
>> >>>> >> > provide the only comfort no remaining to him,---
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 1:27 PM,  <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > All I see is the Omniscient Narrator handing off to Cherrycoke
>> >>>> >> > here.
>> >>>> >> > Are
>> >>>> >> > you
>> >>>> >> > talking about the book as a whole, or just this section?
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Cherrycoke is a stand-in for Pynchon himself, perhaps? Family
>> >>>> >> > outcast,
>> >>>> >> > paid
>> >>>> >> > money to keep away? Well, no. But famous reclusive, one-time
>> >>>> >> > writer
>> >>>> >> > of
>> >>>> >> > something labeled "obscene," long-time bachelor, no real job
>> >>>> >> > other
>> >>>> >> > than
>> >>>> >> > being a highly-paid (relative to most working drones) writer,
>> >>>> >> > now
>> >>>> >> > ensconced
>> >>>> >> > solidly within a family setting and telling a tale.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > LK
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > From: Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> >>>> >> > Sent: Jan 5, 2015 1:00 PM
>> >>>> >> > To: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>> >>>> >> > Subject: M & D Deep Duck Read. Pop quiz
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Who is narrating?, or should that be Who are narrating?
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > And what does that imply, maybe, in various ways, about the
>> >>>> >> > tale?
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > 25 words or fewer..
>> >>>> >> > -
>> >>>> >> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > -
>> >>>> >> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > -
>> >>>> >> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > -
>> >>>> >> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > -
>> >>>> >> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> -
>> >>>> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >> -
>> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>> -
>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
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