M & D Deep Duck Read. Pop quiz

Tue Jan 6 15:59:28 CST 2015

The official Coca Cola Cherry (not to be confused with coke, with cherry syrup added)was introduced in 1985 - it's foul cousin - Diet Cherry Coke, was added the following year. So Cherry Coke is a less authentic version of an old staple. Again, close to the way Cherrycoke describes himself.

LK

-----Original Message-----
>From: Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>Sent: Jan 6, 2015 4:48 PM
>To: John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com>
>Cc: M Thomas Stevenson <m.thomas.stevenson at gmail.com>, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com>, Elisabeth Romberg <eromberg at mac.com>, pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>Subject: Re: M & D Deep Duck Read. Pop quiz
>
>Let's look at the surface of that Famous Table:
>
>meta: Cherry Coke, a sweetened carbonated drink, once truly addictive,
>that Americans, esp youths love.
>Urban Dictionary sez it can mean 'nectar of the gods" too.
>
>The crime the British charged him with was 'Anonymity". What's that about?
>
>And, remembered his self-seen heresy (in an undeliver'd sermon) was
>Christic Doubt.
>
>On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 4:34 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>> real fine and I have mostly sided with my own expressed understanding.
>> BUT, TRP himself, calls Cherrycoke a Bad Rememberer....
>> The kids' interjections accent the excitements they are looking for in
>> the Story.
>>
>> And there is the Other narrator telling the book's story...........
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 4:15 PM, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Fine question by MTS.
>>>
>>> The Cherrycoke-as-narrator thing has never entirely worked for me as
>>> the narratorial voice is so clearly one of our author's (many), not a
>>> character. That internal frame, a story told to children, is only ever
>>> explicitly referred to a tiny number of times, so it hardly feels as
>>> if it's of any significance. And the typically Pynchon-tome
>>> digressions (the secret conversation between clocks in a ship's
>>> nethers, for instance) make the voice more "sweeping and
>>> hallucinatory" than any single narrator should be, unless they want to
>>> claim that psychedelic omniscience of Pynchon's big novels.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 7:38 AM, M Thomas Stevenson
>>> <m.thomas.stevenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> *Katje -- autocorrect
>>>>
>>>> On 6 January 2015, at 20:36, M Thomas Stevenson <m.thomas.stevenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> -- This is actually a Q I wanted to throw out: It seems like there's a certain mode for Pynchon that's much more based in the limited-third, reserved for what I'd say are his "lighter" (physically/tone?) works (COTL49, IV, BE), and that he goes into a much more sweeping and hallucinatory, unreliable-ish voice for the Tomes (not to denigrate or underestimate the aforementioned works, and the two Vs are maybe the exceptions here). BUT, the Q is, with the Cherrycoke frame do you think it falls more on the side of concretely-unreliable (poss. spoiler: talking dog) or more in the tone of GR, which was I'd say actually more reliable, even though it dribbled through a host of minds (the still-astonishing Filming Katie wormhole comes to mind). . . ?
>>>>
>>>> On 6 January 2015, at 20:24, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> yes, I say, yes....The States were full of deep, old Britishness...who
>>>> better to see it than them?
>>>> Cherrycoke can't. So, is this part of his unreliability which we have
>>>> to see through via Chas and Jer?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 3:17 PM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Good stuff. A possibly countervailing sidelight: as a child I read few comic
>>>>> books and (after age 10 or so) watched little TV animation, but some of
>>>>> their appeal must have lurked until I looked at Japanimation over my sons'
>>>>> shoulders in the 1990s. I've happily binged on Cowboy Bebop, Neon Genesis
>>>>> Evangelion, Mushishi, TekkonKinkreet, Attack on Titan, Steyns;Gate, and
>>>>> love Miyazaki even more than classic Disney -- all of which are as
>>>>> juvenile/adolescent as can be, but fresh and interesting to me because of
>>>>> the different cultural seasoning. It's very specific -- I have no broader
>>>>> penchant for either traditional or modern Japanese culture.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe a phenomenon like the "British invasion" of 1960s rock, which was
>>>>> mostly our own R&B / boogie / soul / electric blues coming back at us in
>>>>> Merseyside and East End accents?
>>>>>
>>>>> And maybe in M&D, we should be alert not just for signs of incipient
>>>>> American-ness, but for deep old British-ness -- Blake's Albion, not George
>>>>> III's United Kingdom -- that appears fresh and strange to Chas and Jer
>>>>> because of its new setting?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 2:38 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah, I knew my early morning improvised offhand mention of movies would
>>>>>> be challenged. I thought I might have to argue
>>>>>> that, well, Pynchon watches comics, and he does.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1st, you and I Monte have agreed on the selection effect in the past.
>>>>>> I do not think it applies against my remark--which
>>>>>> was lame and should have been much fuller--and I will fill it out. In
>>>>>> fact, I think your presentation of what you (and others--like me)
>>>>>> might watch makes my case in a way. Becasue you choose not to be
>>>>>> immersed (with your essential sensibility) in the wide-spread
>>>>>> "juvenile"---I now like 'adolescent" better and shoudl have used that
>>>>>> word---culture, you are seeing it too, no?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was saying it pervades the America we know. I was thinking of how
>>>>>> whole huge industries, such as Hollywood, see it and help create it.
>>>>>> Publishing too, altho it is
>>>>>> not huge but it plants those cultural seeds. I should have talked
>>>>>> about, for example, how many adults we all know defend reading and
>>>>>> rereading YA books; about how many
>>>>>> women our age and younger think their 'men' are overgrown boys (a
>>>>>> cultural trope fer sure). i am talking about video games; yes, and
>>>>>> also those action and overgrown boys-as-men
>>>>>> with superskills action movies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What is most important in my remarks about this in M &D is that I
>>>>>> never contrasted Cherrycoke's 'storytelling art' with some higher
>>>>>> artistic period.No Golden Age against the present (of the novel) day.
>>>>>>  In fact, my
>>>>>> judgment of one major part of Pynchon's meaning here is that EVEN THEN
>>>>>> we, as a generalized nation, wanted our history told as adventure to
>>>>>> adolescents, he is always saying. I was
>>>>>> a--glow with this new-to-me (In M &D) possible theme. It is there fer
>>>>>> sure in AtD, yes?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That 'adolescent' cultures are what many--most--all-- cultures'
>>>>>> stories are, is probably true but again, does not work against---he
>>>>>> takes the trope global, universal in AtD! ---but here it is
>>>>>> about incipient Americans. Then
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And now. (Romance as a genre, P's kind of loose, associative symbolic
>>>>>> fictions, veer toward, like a controlled balloon, finding mythic
>>>>>> patterns.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> > MK>...but haven't we all felt that so much that happens in American
>>>>>> > society,
>>>>>> > in its movies, etc. is........juvenile in its
>>>>>> > appeal?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Yes, but at least some of that comes from seeing it all. This American
>>>>>> > tends
>>>>>> > to see only the most acclaimed Swedish and Japanese movies, read only
>>>>>> > the
>>>>>> > most acclaimed Nigerian and Pakistani books -- not the far more
>>>>>> > numerous,
>>>>>> > run-of-the-mill offerings that are, I'm sure, the despair of elite
>>>>>> > Swedish,
>>>>>> > Japanese, Nigerian and Pakistani cultural consumers.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The selection effect works in time as well as space. Many laments about
>>>>>> > mass
>>>>>> > culture, about the decline of art and taste since [insert Golden Age
>>>>>> > here],
>>>>>> > tell us only that educated people have encountered the classics
>>>>>> > surviving --
>>>>>> > by definition --  from earlier eras, not the clunkers everyone has
>>>>>> > forgotten. As you know better than I, Mark, the best-seller lists -- and
>>>>>> > even the high-culture award lists -- of bygone times yield many WTF?!?
>>>>>> > moments.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Maybe most of most cultures everywhere and everywhen is "juvenile"
>>>>>> > because
>>>>>> > "mature" -- aka elite -- culture requires both the opportunity and the
>>>>>> > desire to continue exploration, education (institutional or
>>>>>> > autodidactic),
>>>>>> > and reflection beyond adolescence.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 7:25 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Wonderfullll!....psychometrist, a devolution?--Pynchon's usual way
>>>>>> >> with descendants--from storyteller of adolescent psychology.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Which leads me to THIS: The Rev is telling this story to entertain
>>>>>> >> three
>>>>>> >> kids!
>>>>>> >> (He must or they will stop him). So, an exciting plot-drive story.
>>>>>> >> full of 'Crimes!" shout the boys.
>>>>>> >> Wanting their Youthful conceptions---their
>>>>>> >> stereotypes--"Frenchwomen!", their boyish, uneducated (much)
>>>>>> >> desires and lusts.......slated.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> I, for one, have long thought America as a generalized sensibility, is
>>>>>> >> adolescent in essence. (Real cultural commentators
>>>>>> >> have made this point, from whom I've got it, of course, but haven't we
>>>>>> >> all felt that so much that happens in
>>>>>> >> American society, in its movies, etc. is........juvenile in its
>>>>>> >> appeal?) I suggest TRP is putting that down as
>>>>>> >> well.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> So, I am reminded of the adventure stories that are The Chums of
>>>>>> >> Chance's adventures. Special Operations Executive...an
>>>>>> >> echo---foreecho?--of the Special Operations of the Chums?
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 5:59 AM, Elisabeth Romberg <eromberg at mac.com>
>>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>>> >> > According to Joakim Sigvardson <<(t)he Reverend Wicks Cherrycoke is
>>>>>> >> > possibly
>>>>>> >> > a forefather of Ronald Cherrycoke (...) in (GR). The latter is a
>>>>>> >> > <<noted
>>>>>> >> > psychometrist>> (p. 146), a spiritual medium employed by the
>>>>>> >> > Psychological
>>>>>> >> > Intelligence Schemes for Expecting Surrender at the White Visitation,
>>>>>> >> > (...) on
>>>>>> >> > the coast of Southern England. The White Visitation was formerly a
>>>>>> >> > mental
>>>>>> >> > hospital but when Ronald Cherrycoke and PISCES inhabit it during the
>>>>>> >> > (WWII),
>>>>>> >> > it is part of the Special Operations Executive."
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > Source: Immanence and Trenscendence in Thomas Pynchon's Mason &
>>>>>> >> > Dixon,
>>>>>> >> > published by Stockholm University, 2002, p. 81.
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > Also, could the 'omnipresent narrator' be Tenebrae somehow?
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > 6. jan. 2015 kl. 02.35 skrev John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com>:
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > Ooops, reply all.
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>>> >> > From: John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com>
>>>>>> >> > Date: Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 12:35 PM
>>>>>> >> > Subject: Re: M & D Deep Duck Read. Pop quiz
>>>>>> >> > To: Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > I always thought it was Roland. Huh.
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > Shades of Ronald McDonald mixed in with Coca-Cola? Hardly positive
>>>>>> >> > associations in a P novel.
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > One is ostensibly a man of God, another a man of medicine, but unless
>>>>>> >> > I'm mistaken neither is particularly faithful to their role. They're
>>>>>> >> > both kind of hucksters, kind of woo woo, kind of jokers, right?
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > Although inspired by the discussion of wood in the first chapter,
>>>>>> >> > maybe the coke in Cherrycoke could be read as the combustible fuel
>>>>>> >> > coke. So it's like cherry tree wood used for burning purposes. A slow
>>>>>> >> > burning wood according to the great lord google.
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > Goes with Wicks and also Tenebrae (and I swear I went down a
>>>>>> >> > rabbit-hole during my first read regarding names and light-sources in
>>>>>> >> > M&D).
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 12:23 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > what is the relation of Rev Cherrycoke to Ronald in GR?, that is why
>>>>>> >> > did P echo the name? Cherrycoke, Ronald
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > 125; psychometrist in Psi Section; 146; "undertakes. . .trips into
>>>>>> >> > Nora Dodson-Truck's void, " 150; "in a Jesus Christ getup" 639
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 4:36 PM,  <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > Hello back, David! That dovetails with my view that Cherrycoke is
>>>>>> >> > Pynchon's
>>>>>> >> > stand-in - Pynchon once young, wayward and reclusive, now that nigh
>>>>>> >> > many
>>>>>> >> > years have come and gone, drawn inward to the family hearth to tell
>>>>>> >> > stories.
>>>>>> >> > Not that different from what he's doing (as omniscient narrator)in
>>>>>> >> > Inherent
>>>>>> >> > Vice - telling stories of his youth from the new perspective of
>>>>>> >> > family
>>>>>> >> > man.
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > Laura
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > From: David Ewers <dsewers at comcast.net>
>>>>>> >> > Sent: Jan 5, 2015 4:01 PM
>>>>>> >> > To: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>>>>>> >> > Cc: Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>>> >> > Subject: Re: M & D Deep Duck Read. Pop quiz
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > Hello,
>>>>>> >> > Thanks for setting up this group reading.  This will be my second
>>>>>> >> > reading of
>>>>>> >> > M-&D- (my first was when it came out) but my first time publicly
>>>>>> >> > discussing
>>>>>> >> > it (or any Pynchon book, for that matter...), so I beg your pardon in
>>>>>> >> > advance for my hamfistedness.
>>>>>> >> > I was wondering about the Cherrycoke frame as well.  Are there other
>>>>>> >> > Pynchon
>>>>>> >> > books that start this way, looking back from a comfortable future?  I
>>>>>> >> > can't
>>>>>> >> > think of one.
>>>>>> >> > If  Cherrycoke is a stand-in for Mr. Pynchon, could the framing have
>>>>>> >> > something to do with the idea I've read (eavesdropped) here, that
>>>>>> >> > Pynchon
>>>>>> >> > started M-&D- many years earlier, set it aside to do other things
>>>>>> >> > (Vineland?), and returned to it later from a different place in a
>>>>>> >> > different
>>>>>> >> > America?  In M-&D-, there's the twenty year span from the tale (1766)
>>>>>> >> > to
>>>>>> >> > the
>>>>>> >> > telling (1786).  It seems to me that those years fairly well match
>>>>>> >> > with
>>>>>> >> > the
>>>>>> >> > twenty years Rip Van Winkle slept; also roughly the years from
>>>>>> >> > Gravity's
>>>>>> >> > Rainbow to M-&D- (...when we all slept?).  I'm not sure how fruitful
>>>>>> >> > it
>>>>>> >> > is
>>>>>> >> > to draw too many autobiographic connections, especially when there's
>>>>>> >> > so
>>>>>> >> > much
>>>>>> >> > rich stuff to dig around in here, but I figure I'd throw it out
>>>>>> >> > there.
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > On Jan 5, 2015, at 10:54 AM, Mark Kohut wrote:
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > A + +
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > Why did he not have Cherrycoke tell it all, ya think? and.... that
>>>>>> >> > old
>>>>>> >> > modernist staple [started with The Good Soldier] of
>>>>>> >> > ye unreliable narrator......wha?
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > p. 8 "stoven, dismasted, imbecile with age---an untrustworthy
>>>>>> >> > Remembrancer [see---all on the surface]
>>>>>> >> > for whom the few events yet rattling within a broken mamory must
>>>>>> >> > provide the only comfort no remaining to him,---
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 1:27 PM,  <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > All I see is the Omniscient Narrator handing off to Cherrycoke here.
>>>>>> >> > Are
>>>>>> >> > you
>>>>>> >> > talking about the book as a whole, or just this section?
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > Cherrycoke is a stand-in for Pynchon himself, perhaps? Family
>>>>>> >> > outcast,
>>>>>> >> > paid
>>>>>> >> > money to keep away? Well, no. But famous reclusive, one-time writer
>>>>>> >> > of
>>>>>> >> > something labeled "obscene," long-time bachelor, no real job other
>>>>>> >> > than
>>>>>> >> > being a highly-paid (relative to most working drones) writer, now
>>>>>> >> > ensconced
>>>>>> >> > solidly within a family setting and telling a tale.
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > LK
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > From: Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>>> >> > Sent: Jan 5, 2015 1:00 PM
>>>>>> >> > To: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>>>>>> >> > Subject: M & D Deep Duck Read. Pop quiz
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > Who is narrating?, or should that be Who are narrating?
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > And what does that imply, maybe, in various ways, about the tale?
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > 25 words or fewer..
>>>>>> >> > -
>>>>>> >> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > -
>>>>>> >> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > -
>>>>>> >> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > -
>>>>>> >> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > -
>>>>>> >> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> -
>>>>>> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> -
>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
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