M & D Deep Duck Read. Pop quiz

Keith Davis kbob42 at gmail.com
Sun Jan 11 23:15:23 CST 2015 

Perfect. We're all hucksters, with selective memories, intent on impressing our listeners, (anyone foolish or naive enough to listen), with grand accounts of our adventures. We are, I am, that unreliable narrator...and we believe our own narrative, until finally, like Tyrone, we arrive at zero.


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> On Jan 6, 2015, at 7:09 PM, Johnny Marr <marrja at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Even leaving aside the issue of the unreliable narrator - Cherrycoke's recollection of his own past seems conveniently hazy, never mind his second hand account of a shaggy (talking) dog story - it typifies Pynchon's subversive wit that he should have a man of faith narrate the tale of the Age of Reason.
> 
> 
> 
>> On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 10:04 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Monte,
>> 
>> I think, actually, as my under-three grandson is always saying, as if
>> he knows Appearance from Reality (already)!, I think
>> I got refuted with the selection bias argument on one of the Plist
>> discussions, so I hope I learned something. In my own midn,
>> I think I did and have had it in mind since. (no guarantee I don't
>> fall down though).
>> 
>> On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > MK>...but haven't we all felt that so much that happens in American society,
>> > in its movies, etc. is........juvenile in its
>> > appeal?
>> >
>> > Yes, but at least some of that comes from seeing it all. This American tends
>> > to see only the most acclaimed Swedish and Japanese movies, read only the
>> > most acclaimed Nigerian and Pakistani books -- not the far more numerous,
>> > run-of-the-mill offerings that are, I'm sure, the despair of elite Swedish,
>> > Japanese, Nigerian and Pakistani cultural consumers.
>> >
>> > The selection effect works in time as well as space. Many laments about mass
>> > culture, about the decline of art and taste since [insert Golden Age here],
>> > tell us only that educated people have encountered the classics surviving --
>> > by definition --  from earlier eras, not the clunkers everyone has
>> > forgotten. As you know better than I, Mark, the best-seller lists -- and
>> > even the high-culture award lists -- of bygone times yield many WTF?!?
>> > moments.
>> >
>> > Maybe most of most cultures everywhere and everywhen is "juvenile" because
>> > "mature" -- aka elite -- culture requires both the opportunity and the
>> > desire to continue exploration, education (institutional or autodidactic),
>> > and reflection beyond adolescence.
>> >
>> > On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 7:25 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Wonderfullll!....psychometrist, a devolution?--Pynchon's usual way
>> >> with descendants--from storyteller of adolescent psychology.
>> >>
>> >> Which leads me to THIS: The Rev is telling this story to entertain three
>> >> kids!
>> >> (He must or they will stop him). So, an exciting plot-drive story.
>> >> full of 'Crimes!" shout the boys.
>> >> Wanting their Youthful conceptions---their
>> >> stereotypes--"Frenchwomen!", their boyish, uneducated (much)
>> >> desires and lusts.......slated.
>> >>
>> >> I, for one, have long thought America as a generalized sensibility, is
>> >> adolescent in essence. (Real cultural commentators
>> >> have made this point, from whom I've got it, of course, but haven't we
>> >> all felt that so much that happens in
>> >> American society, in its movies, etc. is........juvenile in its
>> >> appeal?) I suggest TRP is putting that down as
>> >> well.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> So, I am reminded of the adventure stories that are The Chums of
>> >> Chance's adventures. Special Operations Executive...an
>> >> echo---foreecho?--of the Special Operations of the Chums?
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 5:59 AM, Elisabeth Romberg <eromberg at mac.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > According to Joakim Sigvardson <<(t)he Reverend Wicks Cherrycoke is
>> >> > possibly
>> >> > a forefather of Ronald Cherrycoke (...) in (GR). The latter is a <<noted
>> >> > psychometrist>> (p. 146), a spiritual medium employed by the
>> >> > Psychological
>> >> > Intelligence Schemes for Expecting Surrender at the White Visitation,
>> >> > (...) on
>> >> > the coast of Southern England. The White Visitation was formerly a
>> >> > mental
>> >> > hospital but when Ronald Cherrycoke and PISCES inhabit it during the
>> >> > (WWII),
>> >> > it is part of the Special Operations Executive."
>> >> >
>> >> > Source: Immanence and Trenscendence in Thomas Pynchon's Mason & Dixon,
>> >> > published by Stockholm University, 2002, p. 81.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Also, could the 'omnipresent narrator' be Tenebrae somehow?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > 6. jan. 2015 kl. 02.35 skrev John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com>:
>> >> >
>> >> > Ooops, reply all.
>> >> >
>> >> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> >> > From: John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com>
>> >> > Date: Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 12:35 PM
>> >> > Subject: Re: M & D Deep Duck Read. Pop quiz
>> >> > To: Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > I always thought it was Roland. Huh.
>> >> >
>> >> > Shades of Ronald McDonald mixed in with Coca-Cola? Hardly positive
>> >> > associations in a P novel.
>> >> >
>> >> > One is ostensibly a man of God, another a man of medicine, but unless
>> >> > I'm mistaken neither is particularly faithful to their role. They're
>> >> > both kind of hucksters, kind of woo woo, kind of jokers, right?
>> >> >
>> >> > Although inspired by the discussion of wood in the first chapter,
>> >> > maybe the coke in Cherrycoke could be read as the combustible fuel
>> >> > coke. So it's like cherry tree wood used for burning purposes. A slow
>> >> > burning wood according to the great lord google.
>> >> >
>> >> > Goes with Wicks and also Tenebrae (and I swear I went down a
>> >> > rabbit-hole during my first read regarding names and light-sources in
>> >> > M&D).
>> >> >
>> >> > On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 12:23 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > what is the relation of Rev Cherrycoke to Ronald in GR?, that is why
>> >> > did P echo the name? Cherrycoke, Ronald
>> >> >
>> >> > 125; psychometrist in Psi Section; 146; "undertakes. . .trips into
>> >> > Nora Dodson-Truck's void, " 150; "in a Jesus Christ getup" 639
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 4:36 PM,  <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Hello back, David! That dovetails with my view that Cherrycoke is
>> >> > Pynchon's
>> >> > stand-in - Pynchon once young, wayward and reclusive, now that nigh many
>> >> > years have come and gone, drawn inward to the family hearth to tell
>> >> > stories.
>> >> > Not that different from what he's doing (as omniscient narrator)in
>> >> > Inherent
>> >> > Vice - telling stories of his youth from the new perspective of family
>> >> > man.
>> >> >
>> >> > Laura
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> >> >
>> >> > From: David Ewers <dsewers at comcast.net>
>> >> > Sent: Jan 5, 2015 4:01 PM
>> >> > To: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>> >> > Cc: Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> >> > Subject: Re: M & D Deep Duck Read. Pop quiz
>> >> >
>> >> > Hello,
>> >> > Thanks for setting up this group reading.  This will be my second
>> >> > reading of
>> >> > M-&D- (my first was when it came out) but my first time publicly
>> >> > discussing
>> >> > it (or any Pynchon book, for that matter...), so I beg your pardon in
>> >> > advance for my hamfistedness.
>> >> > I was wondering about the Cherrycoke frame as well.  Are there other
>> >> > Pynchon
>> >> > books that start this way, looking back from a comfortable future?  I
>> >> > can't
>> >> > think of one.
>> >> > If  Cherrycoke is a stand-in for Mr. Pynchon, could the framing have
>> >> > something to do with the idea I've read (eavesdropped) here, that
>> >> > Pynchon
>> >> > started M-&D- many years earlier, set it aside to do other things
>> >> > (Vineland?), and returned to it later from a different place in a
>> >> > different
>> >> > America?  In M-&D-, there's the twenty year span from the tale (1766) to
>> >> > the
>> >> > telling (1786).  It seems to me that those years fairly well match with
>> >> > the
>> >> > twenty years Rip Van Winkle slept; also roughly the years from Gravity's
>> >> > Rainbow to M-&D- (...when we all slept?).  I'm not sure how fruitful it
>> >> > is
>> >> > to draw too many autobiographic connections, especially when there's so
>> >> > much
>> >> > rich stuff to dig around in here, but I figure I'd throw it out there.
>> >> >
>> >> > On Jan 5, 2015, at 10:54 AM, Mark Kohut wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > A + +
>> >> >
>> >> > Why did he not have Cherrycoke tell it all, ya think? and.... that old
>> >> > modernist staple [started with The Good Soldier] of
>> >> > ye unreliable narrator......wha?
>> >> >
>> >> > p. 8 "stoven, dismasted, imbecile with age---an untrustworthy
>> >> > Remembrancer [see---all on the surface]
>> >> > for whom the few events yet rattling within a broken mamory must
>> >> > provide the only comfort no remaining to him,---
>> >> >
>> >> > On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 1:27 PM,  <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > All I see is the Omniscient Narrator handing off to Cherrycoke here. Are
>> >> > you
>> >> > talking about the book as a whole, or just this section?
>> >> >
>> >> > Cherrycoke is a stand-in for Pynchon himself, perhaps? Family outcast,
>> >> > paid
>> >> > money to keep away? Well, no. But famous reclusive, one-time writer of
>> >> > something labeled "obscene," long-time bachelor, no real job other than
>> >> > being a highly-paid (relative to most working drones) writer, now
>> >> > ensconced
>> >> > solidly within a family setting and telling a tale.
>> >> >
>> >> > LK
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> >> >
>> >> > From: Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> >> > Sent: Jan 5, 2015 1:00 PM
>> >> > To: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>> >> > Subject: M & D Deep Duck Read. Pop quiz
>> >> >
>> >> > Who is narrating?, or should that be Who are narrating?
>> >> >
>> >> > And what does that imply, maybe, in various ways, about the tale?
>> >> >
>> >> > 25 words or fewer..
>> >> > -
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