M&D Deep Duck: Why Start Here?

Tue Jan 20 16:49:35 CST 2015

Maybe they are perfect for the postmodern novel, or whatever you
choose to call it, but on the other they are not Ebenezer Cooke, but
men of science, math and reason, who embark on a journey into mystery,
into America, where God has not quite left the building and where
magic still swirls in the Newtonian Clockwork.

On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 5:19 PM, alice malice <alicewmalice at gmail.com> wrote:
>  I agree, so maybe the setting question (Why start with this time and
> place?) can be expanded to an exposition question like, Why start with
> these men in this time and in this place? Why Dixon and why Mason? Why
> the work of these men? What have they to do with us, the reader who is
> living at the end of the 20th century. Surely his comic and
> iconoclastic description of our historical figures, including our
> founding fathers,  is not merely meant to amuse us and keep us
> entertained. But I can't ignore the fact that the author chose these
> men of science, men employed by the royal society to apply mathematics
> and astronomy, physics to the mapping of the Earth. I don't think P is
> out to show off his knowledge of history and science. The measurements
> and lines are a mighty big industry, a hunt for a white whale in this
> book, like the quest for the Rocket in GR. And, thus far we see that
> science and technology are disturbed, haunted by the not so scientific
> or even Natural, but by the magical, supernatural, other worldly, and
> that the hauntings and visitations are taking place from both sides.
> It seems Pynchon has written another book about Work and the impact of
> science and technology on it. So why these men? What have they to do
> with we the reader at the end of the 20th century?
>
> On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 3:18 PM, David Ewers <dsewers at comcast.net> wrote:
>> I agree that "The language... for the chosen." could be obvious to anyone who reads the headlines.  But that doesn't mean it is, and isn't that a point here?  Because, like that sort of canine lens the L.E.D. mentioned (the one that keeps us from eating them), aren't there also the warping and concealing filters, etc. that need to be navigated first?  And to navigate them, aren't there ways of seeing, techniques for understanding that must be developed (our own lenses to be ground, parabolized, and fine-tuned...) in order to get a decent read on things?
>> Sorry for committing Corniness against these metaphors, but to Joseph's point: I think a lot of us pick up these tools and techniques "upon the Fly," by encountering hints that resonate with us as trustworthy; that in turn lead to other hints, that lead... so from point to point we make our own survey/transit...  and (to answer the title question) we got to start somewhere.  When I was a kid, my philosophical hero was Joe Strummer.  While a lot things that I might consider obvious now weren't so obvious then, lines like "I believe this and it's been tested by research, that he who fucks nuns will later join the church" or "If Adolph Hitler flew in today they'd send a limousine anyway..." resonated, and definitely pointed me in a certain direction.   I believe I found Thomas Pynchon a few years later on that same line.  I guess my point is, I'm glad Pynchon's wavelength is broad enough to connect to previous/more obviously obvious points in the Line before doing his prismatic thing with it.
>>
>> "...put down your bad shit history and laugh your way into love with humanity."  That's beautiful.
>>
>>
>> On Jan 20, 2015, at 10:11 AM, alice malice wrote:
>>
>>> Joseph, this is exactly what we agree to and you say it better than I
>>> can so....here it is.....
>>> 'The language of economics, of ownership, of boundaries is still
>>> intensely biased in the dominant culture toward principles of
>>> measurement in coins, lines, grids, areas and populations controlled
>>> and securely generating wealth for the chosen."
>>>
>>> But isn't that obvious enough to readers of this novel? Hell, isn't
>>> that obvious to anyone who reads the headlines? One doesn't need to
>>> struggle through Thomas Piketty's Capital to see how obvious this is.
>>> heck, the President of the US is going to address it tonight. The Pope
>>> is shouting it from the forgotten corners of the Earth.
>>>
>>> Humor is a powerful force, as recent events in France attest. Pynchon,
>>> in getting us to laugh at our ridiculous rationalizations of poverty
>>> and violence, organized murder on a global scale, is not out to show
>>> us what we can't or refuse to see. It's there. He doesn't say, open
>>> your eyes. He says, put down your bad shit history and  laugh your way
>>> into love with humanity. There but for Grace....Mason and Dixon might
>>> have been steaming corpses on the Seahorse deck. Will that
>>> brotherhood, newly wed, make a family withe fellows in Africa, out in
>>> the Indian Lands?
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 12:24 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>>>> I guess I wonder obvious to whom? Obviously not so obvious to everyone. The language of economics, of ownership, of boundaries is still intensely biased in the dominant culture toward principles of measurement in coins, lines, grids, areas and populations controlled and securely generating wealth for the chosen. We still measure GDP as the movement of imaginary numbers  and so include war disease and weather or environmental disaster in the plus column.That this language is accepted by a majority is reflected in the international political gridlock.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think this exercise which is perhaps, as you argue, more a mockery than a proof has proven to be a waste of time at all.  New readers are ever coming of age, searching the literature and for many people, these connections to the roots of corporatism, to  science -mapping-and-global-positioning  as the technos of dominance, these connections between personal power and global power, and particularly their specific role in America  are still able to surprise, shock, enlighten, and even inspire change. That P's intentions go beyond this and cover a broad range goes without saying to those who have spent time with his work.
>>>>
>>>> At any rate I think we are in more agreement than disagreement if we think of M&D as a satire of globalization which goes back to the roots of that phenomena as it appeared at the cusp of the industrial age.
>>>> On Jan 20, 2015, at 11:11 AM, alice malice wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Why Pynchon would waste his time to prove the obvious, I can't say,
>>>>> but the book seems directed from the 1760 to the 1960s through then to
>>>>> the end of the 20th century and so a satire of globalization. BTW,
>>>>> Melville wrote a wonderful short on this, not Bartleby but "The
>>>>> Paradise of Bachelors and the Tartarus of Maids"
>>>>>
>>>>> The Bachelors, the Slothful Authors of P's essay and the Maids, Mad
>>>>> Scribblers are Virgins made Dynamo.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 6:49 AM, Keith Davis <kbob42 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> "Of course the whole idea of grids, triangles and numbered objects of trade
>>>>>> is wildly dishonest in it's simplification and violence and part of Pychon's
>>>>>> goal seems to be to prove that."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Talk more about this?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Www.innergroovemusic.com
>>>>>> Sent from Beyond the Zero
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jan 20, 2015, at 5:39 AM, jochen stremmel <jstremmel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Laura, I do not think Dixon's comment (at the end of ch. 4) would mean they
>>>>>> were bound for a transit of Mars but that the transit of Mars was now behind
>>>>>> them, after the skirmish, and that's what Mason's reply seems to play with:
>>>>>> With us going 'cross its face.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And the story starts here because here is where the two men from the title
>>>>>> met for the first time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am I the only one that hears (sees, smells) an echo, just 3 lines before
>>>>>> Dixon's comment, in "the insides of Trees, and of Men....", of another, less
>>>>>> harmful battle at the beginning of the book, namely of the Snow-Balls that
>>>>>> have "starr'd the Sides of Outbuildings, as of Cousins"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2015-01-20 0:15 GMT+01:00 Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> agree about the England>Africa>America> triangle which is the golden
>>>>>>> triangle( rum sugar slaves) and relates to other aspects of the colonial and
>>>>>>> early corporate ventures( tea, East India Co,  whale oil as energy source of
>>>>>>> early industrialism) and also to the increasingly fast movement of peoples
>>>>>>> to and from all over the world north south east west. Finally there is
>>>>>>> something about the pursuit of precise linear distances as negotiated on
>>>>>>> spherical bodies in space- real estate speculation writ large, a topic which
>>>>>>> seems to carry through all of Pynchon.
>>>>>>> On Jan 19, 2015, at 1:33 PM, Keith Davis wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lines everywhere! Equators, transits, rigging, personal and
>>>>>>>> interpersonal barriers....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> David, these lines of yours are fascinating! Probably built by aliens!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Www.innergroovemusic.com
>>>>>>>> Sent from Beyond the Zero
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Jan 19, 2015, at 1:17 PM, David Ewers <dsewers at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I agree with all you say.  Bringing the equator into the equation is
>>>>>>>>> important, I think. ... "To change hemispheres is not abstract thing,--".  I
>>>>>>>>> see it as the point where the image gets inverted: "So there must be a
>>>>>>>>> Ritual of Crossing Over, to focus....".   I also think there's something to
>>>>>>>>> the England>Africa>America>...England triangle, and
>>>>>>>>> I get a Moby Dick vibe here too (obviously, I suppose...).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To my connection-happy Mind, anyway, a somewhat related aside:
>>>>>>>>> Every year around my birthday, I get to drag my wife and young daughter
>>>>>>>>> out on a dorky day/road trip of my choice... I live in N.California so it's
>>>>>>>>> usually Missions or weird old towns.  Today, we're going to look for some of
>>>>>>>>> these:  http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/berkeley-mystery-walls
>>>>>>>>> Anybody know anything about these?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 19, 2015, at 9:46 AM, <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I love Dixon's later comment, after the attack, that perhaps they were
>>>>>>>>>> bound for a transit of Mars.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why start here rather than in America?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For one thing, there's all that geometry - ripe for metaphor -
>>>>>>>>>> entailed in the transit of venus and the crossing of the equator.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And how could Pynchon resist recounting the Seahorse incident, which
>>>>>>>>>> transformed M and D from colleagues to war buddies?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If he'd started in America, maybe Mason and Dixon would have faded
>>>>>>>>>> somewhat into the background of a larger cast of characters?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Other opinions?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Laura
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> transit of Venus must bring us thoughts of Venus, the goddess, yes?
>>>>>>>>>>> Why did TRP start their trip with this? He could have just had them in
>>>>>>>>>>> America.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 18, 2015, at 10:13 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I love chapter summaries. Huzzah! The only question I would have
>>>>>>>>>>>> would be whether the fight was that one-sided. The next chapter has them
>>>>>>>>>>>> speculating that the French were hard after them possibly because of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> transit mission.  The battle is told from their POV and says little about
>>>>>>>>>>>> damage to the French vessel, but the L'Grand did give up after a serious
>>>>>>>>>>>> attack. Maybe I am missing a textual clue here. Tere was also something
>>>>>>>>>>>> about Smith hiring skilled rear gunners.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting tidbit about the Captain being required to pay for his
>>>>>>>>>>>> own victuals.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 18, 2015, at 4:42 PM, <kelber at mindspring.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> My summary. Please, everyone, point out and attack my misreads.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Part 4:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cherrycoke reminisces to his assembled audience -- which includes
>>>>>>>>>>>>> his niece Tenebrae, her brothers Pitt and Pliny, their father LeSpark, who
>>>>>>>>>>>>> we now learn made his fortune in weapon sales, and LeSpark's nephew Ethelmer
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- on break from Princeton. Cherrycoke is reminiscing about traveling with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mason and Dixon on the frigate Seahorse, en route to Sumatra, to observe the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Transit of Venus. But an event occurs -- well-known already to Cherrycoke's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> assembled audience -- which he now relates to us.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mason and Dixon are annoyed to discover that they're apparently
>>>>>>>>>>>>> being charged for their passage by Captain Smith. It turns out to be a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> misunderstanding, and Dixon warms up to the Captain when he discovers he
>>>>>>>>>>>>> enjoys a drink. But there's impending doom on the horizon -- we and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cherrycoke's immediate audience know that the French warship l'Grand is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> lurking in the Channel. Mason, in particular, seems to sense it. It turns
>>>>>>>>>>>>> out Ben Coolen (their destination on Sumatra) has fallen to the French, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Captain's been warned by the Admiralty not to sail for it. So they’re
>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to head for the Cape of Good Hope instead.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> As the ship sails through the Channel -- considered the most
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dangerous body of water in the world by some of its sailors -- we learn
>>>>>>>>>>>>> something of both the captain and his ship. Smith, captain of a near-warship
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (it lacks the full complement of guns) is, himself, no man of war. He'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>> prefer to be sharing a drink and having a philosophical chat with the two
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Men of Science on board. The ship, though, has a proud military record,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> having served with distinction in Quebec. While the sailors sing a chanty
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wherein they rhyme Sumatra with Cleopatra, Cherrycoke discourses on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> meaning of the ship's motto, Eques Sit AEques, which he translates as "Let
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Sea-Knight who would command this Sea-Horse be ever fair-minded." At
>>>>>>>>>>>>> which point the l'Grand appears on the horizon, and, being a French ship,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> its intentions are clearly hostile.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The l'Grand proceeds to kick the shit out of the Seahorse.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cherrycoke, Mason and Dixon, terrified, are dispatched below to serve as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> makeshift medical aides as the casualties pile up. Finally, the l'Grand
>>>>>>>>>>>>> stops the mayhem and moves on. Cherrycoke's never been sure what transpired,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and he speculates that either the French captain realized there were men of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> science aboard, signaling: France is not at war with the sciences. Or maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>>> he just realized that the Seahorse was not a worthy foe: You are leetluh
>>>>>>>>>>>>> meennow -- I throw you back. Captain Smith, distraught over the dead and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wounded lashes out at M and D: Are you two really that important? On deck,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mason and Dixon commune over a couple of bottles of grog. Dixon: More like a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Transit of Mars ...? And the Seahorse limps back to the dockyard.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> -
>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>> -
>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>
-
Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l