A Spectre is haunting comedy...

Tue Jul 7 21:25:41 CDT 2015

I think there's a lot of irony in Seinfeld getting offended that people are
getting offended at him. That's the best way to describe the little tantrum
he's throwing about people not laughing at his jokes hard enough. It's not
as if every joke anyone has ever made is funny just in virtue of the fact
that they wanted it to be, or just because the content of it was something
hateful about some minority. Some jokes fall flat because they don't say
anything more interesting than "haha, gay people, am I right?" I don't
think it's "political correctness" to fail to find that sort of thing
funny, but if it is, I'm not sure I see what is wrong with political
correctness in some cases. As John points out, Seinfeld's going to be
fine...

I don't know exactly whom the paranoid school of politics comprises, but if
anything that helps me and my fellow queers out gives them ammunition, I
guess I take that as a sign that it's a good thing to do. Give them all the
ammunition they want! I might not be waging a war on Christmas, but I'm
definitely trying to destroy traditional American values, and if they want
to freak out about it, let them! The self-righteous rantings of college
students who had never had a job or paid a bill made up a nice chunk of the
protest against Vietnam - that's hardly something to laugh at and move on.

Hell, maybe I'll start waging a war on Christmas. I suspect we're only a
decade or two away from a time when all the good '50s Christmas songs won't
be on the radio, and at that point I won't want to hear a goddamn thing
about Christmas.

On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 5:39 PM, Joe Allonby <joeallonby at gmail.com> wrote:

> Political correctness was invented by right wing satirist P.J. O'Rourke as
> a joke when he was editor of The American Spectator. It was a joke. It was
> never intended to be taken seriously. Apparently, a lot of people didn't
> get the joke. Now we have the War on Christmas and the Persecution of the
> Dukes of Hazzard as a result.
>
> The paranoid school of politics has enough bullshit ammunition, Don't give
> them more. And for chrissake, why would anyone who has spent anytime on a
> university campus take seriously the self-righteous rantings of a college
> student who has never had a job or paid a bill? Saying stupid things
> vehemently is part of the college experience. Laugh and move on.
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 8:22 PM, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> This is a really interesting debate, or at least interesting to me
>> since I'm a big fan of the art of stand-up (and it is an art... some
>> of the most profound stuff I've seen this year has been stand-up).
>> It's probably also a debate that's been around since at least the old
>> and new comedy of the Greeks. I don't think comedy is on its deathbed.
>> Seinfeld might not feel comfortable playing college campuses but I
>> have a feeling he's gonna be oooookaaaay.
>>
>> I think it's worth playing devil's avocado and considering how comedy
>> is often deeply conservative and reactionary. This isn't an argument
>> for censoring that heavy strain of humour, which is absolutely central
>> and mainstream. But as often happens when someone writes a screed
>> lamenting apparent racism or misogyny or homophobia or whatever, the
>> calls of 'but free speeeeech!' don't address the charges but sidestep
>> them. If it's a comic's right to explore any territory, however taboo,
>> then it's also a punter's right to object to it. It's not the comic's
>> responsibility to rebutt the complaint, or anyone's responsibility,
>> really.
>>
>> The right to be offended is rarely defended today, it seems to me. But
>> isn't there great power in getting angry, arguing for change, letting
>> feelings override reason? Isn't the alternative - that we stifle our
>> discomfort, accept what we're shovelled even when it rankles - the
>> most conservative attitude of all?
>>
>> Not that there's anything wrong with that.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 8, 2015 at 12:43 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Hey, just to wrench (sic) it up....any jokes offend anyone?
>> > How about that notion going around...."no rape jokes are--can
>> be--funny" ?
>> >
>> > I have had Rightward friends send me Obama, Hillary jokes......which I
>> would
>> > never want censored BUT.................
>> >
>> > Some make me cringe. Almost all I cannot find even remotely funny
>> > .....(and it is because I see a different set of facts than they do,
>> > among other reasons. )
>> >
>> > One thing that interests me is when and why certain joke themes catch
>> > on in a society.
>> > Why, for example, did that comedian who broke the comedian club rule
>> > and joked about
>> > Cosby's actions---widely believed and even brought out over some media
>> > years ago--
>> > finally hit a nerve, go viral and...voila.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 11:27 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> Comedy is Irrevrance.  It is designed to offend, startle, tickle,
>> provoke.
>> >> It should never be predictable. It is sometimes also very wise...
>> >>
>> >> The "Other" in comedy is often ourselves, fat & stupid like Homer
>> Simpson.
>> >> That Identity factor of Comedy is a deeper relevance in us than an
>> offense
>> >> against this "Other" character. Our own experience, identified
>> feeling, is
>> >> why we laugh. Comedy is an offense against ones's own self, ones's
>> Shadow.
>> >>
>> >> David
>> >> I think the difference between the US and the Euro is obvious:  one is
>> a
>> >> country, the other is a currency.  Currency, like Corporations, aren't
>> >> people. A Country is made of people.
>> >>
>> >> The EU was never a sincere Union.  It was a bankers deal, pure and
>> simple.
>> >>
>> >> On Monday, July 6, 2015, Dave Monroe <against.the.dave at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> I have what I think is a basically ACLU attitude towards free speech,
>> >>> you can't be selective, you gotta protect all of it if you want to
>> >>> maintain it.  I wouldn't sign on, most recently, a "fire Donald Trump"
>> >>> (who by all rights should have "fired" himself the moment he declared
>> >>> his candidacy, who under the Fairness Doctrine [1949 - 2011,
>> >>> requiescat in pace] would have basically required NBC to give ALL the
>> >>> candidates their own "reality" [sic] shows [or so it goes in some
>> >>> parallel universe]) petition 'cos I'd just as soon have idiots
>> >>> identify themselves clearly (and, in this case, @ least, repeatedly,
>> >>> not to mention loudly) as such.  And, lo and behold, a couple/three
>> >>> days later, either out of some sort of corporate conscience, or (more
>> >>> likely) threats (explicit, implied and/or anticipated) of pulled
>> >>> sponsorships, did ihe deed "itself" (sic)..
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 12:14 PM,  <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
>> >>> > I agree with you, Mark. My real issue with most comedy out there is
>> that
>> >>> > it's just not very funny, precisely because there are few, if any,
>> >>> > boundaries left. Maybe, in an oddball way, the finger-pointers are
>> serving
>> >>> > the long-term cause of comedy by putting the boundaries back. As
>> Michael
>> >>> > Flanders, of the old comic singing duo, Flanders and Swann, once
>> quipped:
>> >>> > "The purpose of satire is to strip off the veneer of comforting
>> illusions,
>> >>> > and cosy half-truths. And our job, as I see it, is to put it back
>> again."
>> >>> >
>> >>> > I think odious PC tongue-clucking, in general, is related to the
>> broader
>> >>> > phenomenon of crowd-shaming:
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/15/magazine/how-one-stupid-tweet-ruined-justine-saccos-life.html?_r=0
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Personally, I refuse any calls to pile on to any online shaming
>> >>> > campaigns of public figures, in their various guises: "You won't
>> believe
>> >>> > what [blank] said." or "Demand that [blank] be fired for his [blank]
>> >>> > statement," etc. I decry laws and policies, never people. If a
>> public figure
>> >>> > brags about how great the KKK is, it's my right to feel revulsion.
>> But I
>> >>> > support free speech, even if it's Limbaugh or O'Reilly or Palin or
>> McCain or
>> >>> > any of the Bushes doing the speaking.  Maybe it's because in the 18
>> years I
>> >>> > worked in the construction industry, during which I was called
>> honey, baby,
>> >>> > bitch, cunt, dyke, Jewess, Jewish cunt, etc., I learned to either
>> ignore the
>> >>> > slurs or respond with dignity. When I was sexually harassed or
>> threatened
>> >>> > with rape or even murder, the system was so out of whack that the
>> focus was
>> >>> > on saving MY job, not getting the other person fired. And, you know
>> what? I
>> >>> > was still able to discern that there was a broad range of intent and
>> >>> > intelligence, even among the slur
>> >>> >  -makers.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Are there exceptions to what I'm saying? Of course there are.
>> That's the
>> >>> > cool thing about humans - we're nuanced, self-contradictory, and
>> constantly
>> >>> > evolving. No point in defining any of us by a few random statements.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Laura
>> >>> >
>> >>> > -----Original Message-----
>> >>> >
>> >>> > From: Monte Davis
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Sent: Jul 6, 2015 10:12 AM
>> >>> >
>> >>> > To: Mark Thibodeau
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Cc: pynchon -l
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Subject: Re: A Spectre is haunting comedy...
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > I have some broader and more ambivalent misgivings about how the
>> >>> > progressive version of "more outraged than thou" has accelerated
>> with social
>> >>> > media... but very little ambivalence when it comes to comedy, which
>> has been
>> >>> > a "firewalled" space to say *anything* in a lot of cultures for a
>> long, long
>> >>> > time before the First Amendment. See court jesters, satyr plays,
>> carnivals &
>> >>> > Lords of Misrule, giggly scandalous children's rhymes, etc etc.
>> IMHO that
>> >>> > has been and remains a good thing: if there's anywhere the
>> Voltairean
>> >>> > "...but I will defend to the death your right to say it" should be
>> absolute,
>> >>> > it's comedy.
>> >>> > To put it another way: my own preference when I vehemently object to
>> >>> > expressions of racism, sexism, etc. is to prioritize targets with
>> actual
>> >>> > legal/political power...
>> >>> > Followed at quite a distance by random celebrities NOT in the
>> sphere of
>> >>> > comedy/ satire...
>> >>> > Followed by the random racist/sexist/etc bozos in my face who
>> attempts
>> >>> > to sweeten his venom ingenuously with "Hey, just kidding! You
>> [bien-pensant
>> >>> > advocacy label here] are so humorless!"
>> >>> > Followed, at the very very bottom of the priority list, by those who
>> >>> > explicitly fly the cultural flags/tags of comic/satiric
>> performance. Too
>> >>> > many of my own cherished progressive tenets started out and/or
>> gained
>> >>> > momentum there.
>> >>> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 2:46 AM, Mark Thibodeau <
>> jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>
>> >>> > wrote:
>> >>> > I wrote this for my blog a couple days ago.
>> >>> > I realize it may rankle some here in terms of its implications, but
>> I
>> >>> > would really appreciate feedback from a group of people whom I am
>> pretty
>> >>> > much certain are, for the most part, a lot smarter than I am.
>> >>> > So, by all means... critique away!
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Here's the link:
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> http://dailydirtdiaspora.blogspot.ca/2015/07/thats-not-funny-manufactured-crisis-of.html
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Thanks in advance for your help!
>> >>> > Mark T. aka Jerky LeBoeuf
>> >>> > -
>> >>> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>> >>> -
>> >>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>> > -
>> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>> -
>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>
>
>
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