A Spectre is haunting comedy...

[David Morris]

Gary,
"Internet Consensus"???
Waa....

On Wednesday, July 8, 2015, gary webb <gwebb8686 at gmail.com> wrote:

> At the risk of sounding too paranoid, but considering that this is the
> P-list... Maybe this whole fear that Comedians have of being labeled
> "racist' or "homophobic" from whatever so-called Internet Crusader.. Or
> Jerry Seinfeld afraid to offend righteous college kids... have less to do
> with the art of Comedy, because a good Comedian will go there,
> irregardless, damn the consequences... Not saying that the others mentioned
> in the Article aren't bad Comedians... And they have taken those "risks" in
> their careers... but that's just it, a facebook or twitter campaign lead by
> whoever, based on either truly genuine outrage or misconstrued, could end
> up costing these mainstream comedians money, endorsements, etc. Like anyone
> in the public eye these days, they are beholden to the weird and unyielding
> digital public consensus... Maybe the debate has less to do with the state
> of Comedy, and more to do with corporate paranoia...
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 8, 2015 at 8:46 AM, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','sundayjb at gmail.com');>> wrote:
>
>> That's why I said we agree - I don't think either side has enough
>> power to deserve uniform condemnation, and I think any bad actors in
>> this regard are more symptoms of systemic problems rather than nasty
>> individuals (or very naughty boys). Pynchon doesn't cast shade on
>> individuals as much as structures that produce misdeeds, and I feel
>> that sense of the bigger canvas of inequity might be what draws people
>> to the P-list. But that's just a guess.
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 8, 2015 at 10:33 PM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','montedavis49 at gmail.com');>> wrote:
>> > We've managed the trick of agreement while talking past each other :-)
>> I was
>> > trying to say that it's because of a comedian/satirist's *lack* of
>> actual
>> > power that I don't  invest much indignation in an offensive joke or
>> routine.
>> > Nor, from the other side, am I exercised over the "political correctness
>> > menace" of those who *do* get indignant, protest, crank up Facebook
>> > campaigns, etc. I just think they could find targets that matter more.
>> >
>> > I see a very salient difference between the situation of, e.g., Lenny
>> Bruce
>> > in the 1950s and 1960s -- when he was arrested and jailed for
>> "obscenity"
>> > and clubs where he performed were raided, fined and closed -- and that
>> of
>> > Seinfeld, Colbert or Schumer.
>> >
>> > Ditto for Pynchon; NB the excellent discussion in Herman & Weisenburger
>> of
>> > the Free Speech Movement and antiwar/freak press as context for the
>> writing
>> > of GR. The Pulitzer judges' epic fail was funny, in part, precisely
>> because
>> > literary "obscenity" by then was argued in the realm of taste rather
>> than
>> > law: Brigadier Pudding's midnight snack or the Anubis party/Bianca
>> sequence
>> > (GR, 1973), or even the siege party at Foppl's (V, 1963) might well have
>> > been taken to court in many US venues as late as the 1950s. For Ulysses,
>> > Lady Chatterley's Lover, or even Lolita, serious people had to present
>> > serious arguments of the form "the readers' sexual arousal is
>> permissible
>> > because it's integral to earnest literary art." Pynchon has been part of
>> > the evolution from that to today's default: "Readers' sexual arousal?
>> You
>> > say that like it's a bad thing..."
>> >
>> > I vaguely recall an article about R. Crumb circa 1972 -- most likely
>> Rolling
>> > Stone -- in which an earnest interviewer asked him whether his 'Incest
>> > Comix' had been a commentary on the repressive patriarchal hegemonistic
>> > family structure, etc, and Crumb replied, God bless him: "No, I was just
>> > being a punk."
>> >
>> > On Wed, Jul 8, 2015 at 7:08 AM, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','sundayjb at gmail.com');>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I agree with you entirely, Monte, but perhaps to different ends. I
>> >> don't see those who object to rape jokes, or racially charged humour,
>> >> as coming from a position of power and thus deserving of excoriation.
>> >> Still, I don't agree with the noxious culture of shaming, either,
>> >> which Laura brings up.
>> >>
>> >> However, I do think there's a big difference between saying "I can
>> >> choose not to respond to this" and saying "no one should object to
>> >> this". Hell, does anyone here not *secretly* get a kick from the
>> >> Pulitzer Board's decision to overturn the GR award on the basis of its
>> >> supposed obscenity (etc)? Interesting stuff SHOULD get a rise from
>> >> certain people. But calling for the heads of those who are offended
>> >> seems... counterproductive.
>> >>
>> >> Anyway, my own experience is simply that too often these arguments are
>> >> about as sophisticated as those of young white men wanting to use the
>> >> N-word. Of all the things you could fight for in this world, that's
>> >> your priority?
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Jul 8, 2015 at 7:35 PM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','montedavis49 at gmail.com');>>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > JB> Isn't the alternative - that we stifle our discomfort, accept
>> what
>> >> > we're
>> >> > shovelled even when it rankles - the most conservative attitude of
>> all?
>> >> >
>> >> > What does "accept what we're shovelled" mean? It connotes compulsion
>> or
>> >> > absence of alternatives... and I honestly, literally don't know what
>> >> > that
>> >> > might mean in the context of standup, or comedy in general. Or
>> Seinfeld
>> >> > in
>> >> > particular, because as it happens I've seen maybe four episodes of
>> the
>> >> > show
>> >> > and one or two of JS' standup performances (on TV) in my life --
>> which
>> >> > suggests that the You Must Silently Accept Repugnant Attitudes
>> Embedded
>> >> > in
>> >> > Comedy Police have not been doing their job.
>> >> >
>> >> > As I said before, my own commitment to identify and raise my voice in
>> >> > opposition to offensive attitudes is in proportion to the actual
>> *power*
>> >> > involved. Comedy performance (1) doesn't AFAIK impose mandatory
>> >> > attendance
>> >> > or attention, and (2) has always flown cultural flags --  call them
>> >> > trigger
>> >> > warnings if you like -- of "this discourse is going to play along the
>> >> > edges
>> >> > of your comfort zone." So it's way way down the to-do list for me.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 8:22 PM, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','sundayjb at gmail.com');>> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> This is a really interesting debate, or at least interesting to me
>> >> >> since I'm a big fan of the art of stand-up (and it is an art... some
>> >> >> of the most profound stuff I've seen this year has been stand-up).
>> >> >> It's probably also a debate that's been around since at least the
>> old
>> >> >> and new comedy of the Greeks. I don't think comedy is on its
>> deathbed.
>> >> >> Seinfeld might not feel comfortable playing college campuses but I
>> >> >> have a feeling he's gonna be oooookaaaay.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I think it's worth playing devil's avocado and considering how
>> comedy
>> >> >> is often deeply conservative and reactionary. This isn't an argument
>> >> >> for censoring that heavy strain of humour, which is absolutely
>> central
>> >> >> and mainstream. But as often happens when someone writes a screed
>> >> >> lamenting apparent racism or misogyny or homophobia or whatever, the
>> >> >> calls of 'but free speeeeech!' don't address the charges but
>> sidestep
>> >> >> them. If it's a comic's right to explore any territory, however
>> taboo,
>> >> >> then it's also a punter's right to object to it. It's not the
>> comic's
>> >> >> responsibility to rebutt the complaint, or anyone's responsibility,
>> >> >> really.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The right to be offended is rarely defended today, it seems to me.
>> But
>> >> >> isn't there great power in getting angry, arguing for change,
>> letting
>> >> >> feelings override reason? Isn't the alternative - that we stifle our
>> >> >> discomfort, accept what we're shovelled even when it rankles - the
>> >> >> most conservative attitude of all?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Not that there's anything wrong with that.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Wed, Jul 8, 2015 at 12:43 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','mark.kohut at gmail.com');>>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> > Hey, just to wrench (sic) it up....any jokes offend anyone?
>> >> >> > How about that notion going around...."no rape jokes are--can
>> >> >> > be--funny"
>> >> >> > ?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I have had Rightward friends send me Obama, Hillary
>> jokes......which
>> >> >> > I
>> >> >> > would
>> >> >> > never want censored BUT.................
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Some make me cringe. Almost all I cannot find even remotely funny
>> >> >> > .....(and it is because I see a different set of facts than they
>> do,
>> >> >> > among other reasons. )
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > One thing that interests me is when and why certain joke themes
>> catch
>> >> >> > on in a society.
>> >> >> > Why, for example, did that comedian who broke the comedian club
>> rule
>> >> >> > and joked about
>> >> >> > Cosby's actions---widely believed and even brought out over some
>> >> >> > media
>> >> >> > years ago--
>> >> >> > finally hit a nerve, go viral and...voila.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 11:27 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','fqmorris at gmail.com');>>
>> >> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> >> Comedy is Irrevrance.  It is designed to offend, startle, tickle,
>> >> >> >> provoke.
>> >> >> >> It should never be predictable. It is sometimes also very wise...
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> The "Other" in comedy is often ourselves, fat & stupid like Homer
>> >> >> >> Simpson.
>> >> >> >> That Identity factor of Comedy is a deeper relevance in us than
>> an
>> >> >> >> offense
>> >> >> >> against this "Other" character. Our own experience, identified
>> >> >> >> feeling,
>> >> >> >> is
>> >> >> >> why we laugh. Comedy is an offense against ones's own self,
>> ones's
>> >> >> >> Shadow.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> David
>> >> >> >> I think the difference between the US and the Euro is obvious:
>> one
>> >> >> >> is
>> >> >> >> a
>> >> >> >> country, the other is a currency.  Currency, like Corporations,
>> >> >> >> aren't
>> >> >> >> people. A Country is made of people.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> The EU was never a sincere Union.  It was a bankers deal, pure
>> and
>> >> >> >> simple.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> On Monday, July 6, 2015, Dave Monroe <against.the.dave at gmail.com
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','against.the.dave at gmail.com');>>
>> >> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> I have what I think is a basically ACLU attitude towards free
>> >> >> >>> speech,
>> >> >> >>> you can't be selective, you gotta protect all of it if you want
>> to
>> >> >> >>> maintain it.  I wouldn't sign on, most recently, a "fire Donald
>> >> >> >>> Trump"
>> >> >> >>> (who by all rights should have "fired" himself the moment he
>> >> >> >>> declared
>> >> >> >>> his candidacy, who under the Fairness Doctrine [1949 - 2011,
>> >> >> >>> requiescat in pace] would have basically required NBC to give
>> ALL
>> >> >> >>> the
>> >> >> >>> candidates their own "reality" [sic] shows [or so it goes in
>> some
>> >> >> >>> parallel universe]) petition 'cos I'd just as soon have idiots
>> >> >> >>> identify themselves clearly (and, in this case, @ least,
>> >> >> >>> repeatedly,
>> >> >> >>> not to mention loudly) as such.  And, lo and behold, a
>> couple/three
>> >> >> >>> days later, either out of some sort of corporate conscience, or
>> >> >> >>> (more
>> >> >> >>> likely) threats (explicit, implied and/or anticipated) of pulled
>> >> >> >>> sponsorships, did ihe deed "itself" (sic)..
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 12:14 PM,  <kelber at mindspring.com
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','kelber at mindspring.com');>> wrote:
>> >> >> >>> > I agree with you, Mark. My real issue with most comedy out
>> there
>> >> >> >>> > is
>> >> >> >>> > that
>> >> >> >>> > it's just not very funny, precisely because there are few, if
>> >> >> >>> > any,
>> >> >> >>> > boundaries left. Maybe, in an oddball way, the finger-pointers
>> >> >> >>> > are
>> >> >> >>> > serving
>> >> >> >>> > the long-term cause of comedy by putting the boundaries back.
>> As
>> >> >> >>> > Michael
>> >> >> >>> > Flanders, of the old comic singing duo, Flanders and Swann,
>> once
>> >> >> >>> > quipped:
>> >> >> >>> > "The purpose of satire is to strip off the veneer of
>> comforting
>> >> >> >>> > illusions,
>> >> >> >>> > and cosy half-truths. And our job, as I see it, is to put it
>> back
>> >> >> >>> > again."
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> > I think odious PC tongue-clucking, in general, is related to
>> the
>> >> >> >>> > broader
>> >> >> >>> > phenomenon of crowd-shaming:
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> >
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/15/magazine/how-one-stupid-tweet-ruined-justine-saccos-life.html?_r=0
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> > Personally, I refuse any calls to pile on to any online
>> shaming
>> >> >> >>> > campaigns of public figures, in their various guises: "You
>> won't
>> >> >> >>> > believe
>> >> >> >>> > what [blank] said." or "Demand that [blank] be fired for his
>> >> >> >>> > [blank]
>> >> >> >>> > statement," etc. I decry laws and policies, never people. If a
>> >> >> >>> > public figure
>> >> >> >>> > brags about how great the KKK is, it's my right to feel
>> >> >> >>> > revulsion.
>> >> >> >>> > But I
>> >> >> >>> > support free speech, even if it's Limbaugh or O'Reilly or
>> Palin
>> >> >> >>> > or
>> >> >> >>> > McCain or
>> >> >> >>> > any of the Bushes doing the speaking.  Maybe it's because in
>> the
>> >> >> >>> > 18
>> >> >> >>> > years I
>> >> >> >>> > worked in the construction industry, during which I was called
>> >> >> >>> > honey, baby,
>> >> >> >>> > bitch, cunt, dyke, Jewess, Jewish cunt, etc., I learned to
>> either
>> >> >> >>> > ignore the
>> >> >> >>> > slurs or respond with dignity. When I was sexually harassed or
>> >> >> >>> > threatened
>> >> >> >>> > with rape or even murder, the system was so out of whack that
>> the
>> >> >> >>> > focus was
>> >> >> >>> > on saving MY job, not getting the other person fired. And, you
>> >> >> >>> > know
>> >> >> >>> > what? I
>> >> >> >>> > was still able to discern that there was a broad range of
>> intent
>> >> >> >>> > and
>> >> >> >>> > intelligence, even among the slur
>> >> >> >>> >  -makers.
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> > Are there exceptions to what I'm saying? Of course there are.
>> >> >> >>> > That's
>> >> >> >>> > the
>> >> >> >>> > cool thing about humans - we're nuanced, self-contradictory,
>> and
>> >> >> >>> > constantly
>> >> >> >>> > evolving. No point in defining any of us by a few random
>> >> >> >>> > statements.
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> > Laura
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> > -----Original Message-----
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> > From: Monte Davis
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> > Sent: Jul 6, 2015 10:12 AM
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> > To: Mark Thibodeau
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> > Cc: pynchon -l
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> > Subject: Re: A Spectre is haunting comedy...
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> > I have some broader and more ambivalent misgivings about how
>> the
>> >> >> >>> > progressive version of "more outraged than thou" has
>> accelerated
>> >> >> >>> > with social
>> >> >> >>> > media... but very little ambivalence when it comes to comedy,
>> >> >> >>> > which
>> >> >> >>> > has been
>> >> >> >>> > a "firewalled" space to say *anything* in a lot of cultures
>> for a
>> >> >> >>> > long, long
>> >> >> >>> > time before the First Amendment. See court jesters, satyr
>> plays,
>> >> >> >>> > carnivals &
>> >> >> >>> > Lords of Misrule, giggly scandalous children's rhymes, etc
>> etc.
>> >> >> >>> > IMHO
>> >> >> >>> > that
>> >> >> >>> > has been and remains a good thing: if there's anywhere the
>> >> >> >>> > Voltairean
>> >> >> >>> > "...but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
>> should
>> >> >> >>> > be
>> >> >> >>> > absolute,
>> >> >> >>> > it's comedy.
>> >> >> >>> > To put it another way: my own preference when I vehemently
>> object
>> >> >> >>> > to
>> >> >> >>> > expressions of racism, sexism, etc. is to prioritize targets
>> with
>> >> >> >>> > actual
>> >> >> >>> > legal/political power...
>> >> >> >>> > Followed at quite a distance by random celebrities NOT in the
>> >> >> >>> > sphere
>> >> >> >>> > of
>> >> >> >>> > comedy/ satire...
>> >> >> >>> > Followed by the random racist/sexist/etc bozos in my face who
>> >> >> >>> > attempts
>> >> >> >>> > to sweeten his venom ingenuously with "Hey, just kidding! You
>> >> >> >>> > [bien-pensant
>> >> >> >>> > advocacy label here] are so humorless!"
>> >> >> >>> > Followed, at the very very bottom of the priority list, by
>> those
>> >> >> >>> > who
>> >> >> >>> > explicitly fly the cultural flags/tags of comic/satiric
>> >> >> >>> > performance.
>> >> >> >>> > Too
>> >> >> >>> > many of my own cherished progressive tenets started out and/or
>> >> >> >>> > gained
>> >> >> >>> > momentum there.
>> >> >> >>> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 2:46 AM, Mark Thibodeau
>> >> >> >>> > <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com');>>
>> >> >> >>> > wrote:
>> >> >> >>> > I wrote this for my blog a couple days ago.
>> >> >> >>> > I realize it may rankle some here in terms of its
>> implications,
>> >> >> >>> > but
>> >> >> >>> > I
>> >> >> >>> > would really appreciate feedback from a group of people whom
>> I am
>> >> >> >>> > pretty
>> >> >> >>> > much certain are, for the most part, a lot smarter than I am.
>> >> >> >>> > So, by all means... critique away!
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> > Here's the link:
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> >
>> http://dailydirtdiaspora.blogspot.ca/2015/07/thats-not-funny-manufactured-crisis-of.html
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> > Thanks in advance for your help!
>> >> >> >>> > Mark T. aka Jerky LeBoeuf
>> >> >> >>> > -
>> >> >> >>> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>> >> >> >>> -
>> >> >> >>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>> >> >> > -
>> >> >> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>> >> >> -
>> >> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >
>> >
>> -
>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>
>
>
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