A Ranking of Pynchon's Novels

[John Bailey]

God I'm glad someone else took on this job. I was sweating jellybeans
at my lack of statistical abilities. For unranked novels I just split
the leftover points evenly, knowing this was Bad Math.

On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 7:27 PM, Heikki R
<situations.journeys.comedy at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Current standings (21 respondents) on a scale of 1 (least good) to 8 (best):
>
>
> 1. Gravity's Rainbow     (156 points - average 7,43)
> 2. Mason & Dixon         (131 points - average 6,24)
> 3. V.                            (108,5 points - average 5,17)
> 4. The Crying of Lot 49  (96 points - average 4,57)
> 5. Against the Day        (82,5 points - average 3,93)
> 6. Vineland                   (77 points - average 3,67)
> 7. Bleeding Edge          (50 points - average 2,38)
> 8. Inherent Vice            (40 points - average 1,90)
>
>
> The results/averages are not wholly reliable as not every respondent ranked
> all the novels. I ignored Slow Learner.
>
>
> Heikki
>
> On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 11:18 AM, Dave Monroe <against.the.dave at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> "Could he [Wm. Slothrop] have been the fork in the road America never
>> took, the singular point she jumped the wrong way from? ... It seems
>> to Tyrone Slothrop that there might be a route back." (GR, Pt. III, p.
>> 556)
>>
>> http://www.ottosell.de/pynchon/rainbow.htm
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 4:04 AM, Kai Frederik Lorentzen
>> <lorentzen at hotmail.de> wrote:
>> >
>> >> That sense of contingency, that sense that things could have been
>> >> different, speaks to me, and I find it missing in GR ... <
>> >
>> > There you speak from an American perspective. For me, as a German
>> > person,
>> > "Gravity's Rainbow" has this sense of contingency because it asks why we
>> > did
>> > become Nazi Germany in the 1930s and what, actually and virtually,
>> > happened
>> > to Germany during the 1940s. In this regard the only novel that can
>> > compete
>> > with "Gravity's Rainbow" is "Doktor Faustus" by Thomas Mann, which was
>> > written in LA too. Paradoxically, the fact that Pynchon knew relatively
>> > little about Germany enabled him to evoke something crucial; and certain
>> > zeitgeist circumstances, like Acid or the war in Vietnam, helped him to
>> > create a picture of Nazi Germany that in many aspects shows more of the
>> > actual reality than the moralist tales of writers like Böll and Grass;
>> > referring to the Holocaust only indirectly is part of this writing
>> > strategy.
>> > I know, "Pynchon deserves to be honored as an American patriot"
>> > (Naumann),
>> > but I read him from my German perspective, too. The few true works of
>> > "Weltliteratur" (Goethe), and "Gravity's Rainbow" certainly belongs to
>> > this
>> > exquisite canon, deserve more than just one and the same reading. And
>> > then
>> > "Gravity's Rainbow" is 760 pages not flash prose but poetry ...
>> >
>> > In the cases of both, "Mason & Dixon"  and "Against the Day," I feel the
>> > idea to be much better than the result. I guess the fact that these
>> > books
>> > were long, actually too long in the pipeline plays an important role
>> > here.
>> > Like Walter Benjamin had it: "Das Werk ist die Totenmaske der
>> > Konzeption."
>> > The (finished) work of art is the death mask of conception. The letters
>> > are
>> > there on the page, but the artistic thrill is gone ...
>> >
>> > "Bleeding Edge," where Pynchon - focusing on digitalization and
>> > terrorism -
>> > returns to the GR question of technology and control, and "Vineland"
>> > show
>> > Pynchon II in full bloom, an author who, while having a family of his
>> > own
>> > relatively late in life, discovers the loyalties and disloyalties of
>> > blood
>> > ... I also think that these two are the funniest works of Pynchon.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 23.07.2015 03:39, Robert Mahnke wrote:
>> >
>> > David said, "the fact that not everyone agrees that GR is Pynchon's
>> > masterpiece make some of wonder what's wrong with those that don't. We
>> > could
>> > start flame wars about these differences. That might be illuminating,
>> > and
>> > fun..."
>> >
>> > Since I was one of the (few) people who didn't rank GR first, let me try
>> > to
>> > shed some light, but not heat.  The most recent time I re-read GR, I was
>> > as
>> > impressed as ever with it intellectually, but it didn't seem as human as
>> > M&D.  Maybe a central question of M&D is, Why did we end up with this
>> > country instead of another?  That's question in many of Pynchon's novels
>> > (AtD (this world instead of another) and both Inherent Vice and Vineland
>> > (this California instead of another). That sense of contingency, that
>> > sense
>> > that things could have been different, speaks to me, and I find it
>> > missing
>> > in GR (and V and TCoL49 before it), where there is such a strong sense
>> > of
>> > predetermination, of the discovery of a hidden order and conspiracy,
>> > whether
>> > in the pattern of the V-2s falling on London or the printed-circuit-like
>> > layout of San Narciso. I'm presenting this as a dichotomy, but of course
>> > something of that sense of another country is in the earlier books, for
>> > example in a great passage just before the end of TCoL49 which I can't
>> > find
>> > online just now.  Still, from this perspective you can be impressed by
>> > the
>> > intellectual pyrotechnics of GR (it is second on my list, after all),
>> > and
>> > yet still think of it as a not-yet-matured work relative to M&D.  If
>> > Pynchon
>> > had written M&D in the 70s and GR two decades later, might their
>> > relative
>> > statures in everyone's eyes be the reverse?
>> >
>> > Those are just a few thoughts tonight. I reserve the right to change my
>> > mind
>> > completely tomorrow.
>> >
>> > On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 4:58 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Those that have read all of Pynchon's novels are familiar with each
>> >> ones
>> >> qualities and differences. Thus there is a common unspoken
>> >> understanding of
>> >> the overall picture. But the fact that not everyone agrees that GR is
>> >> Pynchon's masterpiece make some of wonder what's wrong with those that
>> >> don't. We could start flame wars about these differences. That might be
>> >> illuminating, and fun...
>> >>
>> >> David Morris
>> >>
>> >> On Wednesday, July 22, 2015, Conor McDade <fpsconor at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> I am only a youth, so I apologize for my naivete, but what is the
>> >>> point
>> >>> of these lists without providing any insight as to why you listed them
>> >>> in
>> >>> such order? Is it simply to see how people's tastes vary?
>> >>>
>> >>> On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 3:29 PM, Chris v <traditionalgb at gmail.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> 1. AtD
>> >>>> 2. M&D
>> >>>> 3. GR
>> >>>> 4. VL
>> >>>> 5. IV
>> >>>> 6. CoL49
>> >>>> 7. V.
>> >>>> 8. SL
>> >>>> 9. BE (haven't read yet)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 6:19 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Why doesn't Ms. Jackson (and Thomas) make that happen, you think?
>> >>>>> Why
>> >>>>> wasn't there a 50th Anniversary edition Of V? seems about every
>> >>>>> modern "
>> >>>>> classic" was so " honored" Think Pynchon does not believe in such
>> >>>>> anniversary editions?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Jul 22, 2015, at 3:51 AM, James Robertson
>> >>>>> <james at themutedposthorn.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I sure wish someone would record an audiobook of V, and Vineland.
>> >>>>> That
>> >>>>> new George Guidall version of GR is marvellous.
>> >>>>> On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 at 8:48 pm jochen stremmel <jstremmel at gmail.com>
>> >>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> 2nd that!
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> 2015-07-22 9:55 GMT+02:00 Heikki R
>> >>>>>> <situations.journeys.comedy at gmail.com>:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> 1. Gravity's Rainbow
>> >>>>>>> 2. V.
>> >>>>>>> 3. Mason & Dixon
>> >>>>>>> 4. The Crying of Lot 49
>> >>>>>>> 5. Vineland
>> >>>>>>> 6. Against the Day
>> >>>>>>> 7. Inherent Vice
>> >>>>>>> 8. Bleeding Edge
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> In fact, on a couple of occasions, the contestants were
>> >>>>>>> shoulder-to-shoulder. But I decided to avoid ties (perhaps for
>> >>>>>>> tactical
>> >>>>>>> reasons).
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Heikki
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 7:02 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>> >>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Eaux Contraire!
>> >>>>>>>> Inclusion is de facto non-flame. Love is the answer.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> David Morris
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, July 21, 2015, Dave Monroe
>> >>>>>>>> <against.the.dave at gmail.com>
>> >>>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> ...  speaking of flame wars ...
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 11:04 PM, David Morris
>> >>>>>>>>> <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>> > Elected Officials are all we got in this semi-democracy. Love
>> >>>>>>>>> > it
>> >>>>>>>>> > or Leave
>> >>>>>>>>> > it.
>> >>>>>>>>> >
>> >>>>>>>>> > We need to embrace democracy, with all its warts. We are
>> >>>>>>>>> > extremely lucky to
>> >>>>>>>>> > be living in a place where we would want to discuss this
>> >>>>>>>>> > abstraction.
>> >>>>>>>>> >
>> >>>>>>>>> > David Morris
>> >>>>>>>>> >
>> >>>>>>>>> >
>> >>>>>>>>> > On Tuesday, July 21, 2015, Dave Monroe
>> >>>>>>>>> > <against.the.dave at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>> >>
>> >>>>>>>>> >> Americans will vote for almost anything except elected
>> >>>>>>>>> >> officials.
>> >>>>>>>>> >>
>> >>>>>>>>> >> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 9:33 PM, David Morris
>> >>>>>>>>> >> <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>> >> > Voting is so American Idol!  I want my choice to win!
>> >>>>>>>>> >> > Face facts: Votes aren't gunna be backed up by essays.
>> >>>>>>>>> >> > David Morris
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >
>> >>>>>>>>> >> > On Tuesday, July 21, 2015, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com>
>> >>>>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >>
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> No, it just means that mathematical averages cannot
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> capture
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> the
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> delightful diversity of our responses! Collating the
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> different lists
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> into one loses something the way that a plot summary of a
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> P
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> novel will
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> never suffice.
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >>
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 12:10 PM, David Ewers
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> <dsewers at comcast.net>
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> > I feel so redundant!
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> > On Jul 21, 2015, at 6:53 PM Jolly good day we are
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> > having,
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> > John Bailey
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> > wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >> The order seems to remain the same.
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:55 AM, David Ewers
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >> <dsewers at comcast.net>
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> Me too!
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> 1. V.
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> 2. Gravity's Rainbow
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> 3. Mason & Dixon
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> 4/5. Against the Day
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> 4/5. Crying of Lot 49
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> 6. Vineland
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> 7. Inherent Vice
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> 8. Bleeding Edge
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> On Jul 21, 2015, at 6:22 PM Jolly good day we are
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> having,
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> Mark
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> Thibodeau
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> I love the diversity of opinions, too, but I'm kind of
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> surprised at
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> how bad
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> V. is faring!
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> MT/J
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 9:08 PM, Ian Livingston
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> <igrlivingston at gmail.com>
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> Love the diversity of rankings in rating one great
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> author. Rather
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> like six
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> blind men describing an elephant. We each have our
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> opinions and
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> our
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> reasons
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> for them. I love GR, I truly do, and it may be the
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> greater work
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> for
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> all it
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> did to shape postmodernism, but:
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> 1. M&D
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> 2. GR
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> 3. AtD
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> 4. V. / COL 49  (tie)
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> 5. Vineland
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> 6. BE
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> 7. IV
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> 8. Slow Learner
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 5:48 PM, glenn fuller
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> <glennfuller at sbcglobal.net>
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>> G.R.
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>> A.t.D.
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>> T.C.O.L.49
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>> Vineland
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>> M&D
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>> I.V.
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>> B.E.
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>> V
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >>>
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> -
>> >>>>>>>>> >> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >
>> >
>> -
>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>
>
-
Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l