Brilliantly, sadly observed

Fri Nov 27 12:09:14 CST 2015

I think that the attempt at moral equivalence is naive. Two examples we see
all the time, Dresden and the atomic bombings of Japan are morally
equivalent to the Holocaust and to Pearl Harbor. A slippery slope that
comes with revisionist history. A method that, in admitting that it can't
understand the past, but only construct a narrative about it, re-write it
and revise it, fails to make distinctions and, most importantly, had great
difficulty analyzing the present.

More naive is the argument that the  failure of the West to look at the
atrocities it commits as equal to or greater than those committed against
it, undermines the security of the West.

On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Ian Livingston <igrlivingston at gmail.com>
wrote:

> > only an honest definition of the similarities and differences in what
> the US and its allies are doing and have done and what the Muslim groups
> are doing will begin the process of understanding.
>
> For the most part, I'm inclined to agree with Joseph, here, but this last
> phrase from Ish really hits the mark, imo. No country in the West has
> offered a full and coherent statement of their intentions in the Middle
> East, and I have encountered none published here of what anti-Western
> combatants and supporters earnestly desire as an outcome of their efforts
> and sacrifices. The absence of understanding encourages resistance and
> resistance, it seems inevitably, increases force. Mayhem ensues. It's not
> even an effective means of population reduction. Understanding and
> knowledge of the similarities the other shares with the self can unravel
> conflict.
>
> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 7:01 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Right. So, we can't use the word "terrorism" to describe the US atomic
>> bombs dropped on Japan, any more than the term should be applied to the
>> bombings of Iraq, Vietnam....the bombing of Doctors Without Boarders, of
>> schools and so on by the US. Same goes for the US use of torture & Co.
>>
>> Too much distinction is lost, though, of course, the rhetorical use is
>> effective, in a rant, say, or in a headline or propaganda film on Youtube.
>>
>> Those who call the US the greatest terrorist nation in the world may hope
>> to turn the phrase, one the US and its allies use to demonize other nations
>> and groups, and score a point, but only an honest definition of the
>> similarities and differences in what the US and its allies are doing and
>> have done and what the Muslim groups are doing will begin the process of
>> understanding.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Yeah, the U.S. Record is atrocious. Looking up bombing under the Geneva
>>> conventions, one quickly learns what one knew: atomic bombs that ended WW2
>>> were ...war crimes.
>>>
>>> No official international treaties cover strategic bombing. Principles
>>> of necessity and proportionality and attempts to warn citizens are
>>> governing principles.
>>>
>>> It's all a shithole of death.
>>>
>>> But courses have been changed. Some principles have been followed.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>> > On Nov 27, 2015, at 12:12 AM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > So what exactly does the word terrorism mean? Give me a definition.
>>> >
>>> > Also what is a  “rant”.
>>> >
>>> > When you talk about what “we “ have been able to do since ww2, who are
>>> you talking  about. Do the politicians and CIA and Pentagon consult with
>>> you. At any rate I find the international record of the US government after
>>> ww2 to be mostly horrible.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> On Nov 26, 2015, at 8:31 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> The diversity of approaches  can't be ignored, and labeling one, the
>>> bombing and droning by America, for example, as "terrorism", while an
>>> effective rhetorical strategy to counter the American propaganda that seeks
>>> to paste this label on its current targets, is counterproductive.
>>> >>
>>> >> War, not only destroys communities, wastes resources, and so on, it
>>> compounds the difficulties that are naturally and inherently present in
>>> communication across cultures, as fundamental differences about human
>>> communities become ideologically rigid by the exercise of power and the use
>>> of violence and intimidation (terror).
>>> >>
>>> >> That said, the end of violence, while a necessary step, one that will
>>> stop making matters worse, will also bring more complexity to the problem,
>>> and even more approaches to solving it. The peace process will admit more
>>> voices, more groups, more diversity.
>>> >>
>>> >> Human rights, justice, independence, self-determination, security,
>>> education, freedom....these are not going to flourish once the west ceases
>>> the bombing and droning. To achieve these, is, of course,  much more
>>> difficult than waging wars.
>>> >>
>>> >> Fortunately, we have some decent models. While never perfect, we can
>>> look to what we have been able to do, since WWII, and work for a lasting
>>> peace in this troubled region of the world. We will need Russia and China
>>> and others to get it done. And, while  I doubt it will happen, that's what
>>> it will take. To dismiss the West and the whites, and smear them all with
>>> trumpings makes for good headlines in a tabloid, rants.....nothing more....
>>> >>
>>> >> Aside from the ranting, there are advantages to the privileged who
>>> can articulate their grievances and capitalize on the plight of the poor
>>> and powerless, who are, of course, disproportionately, people of color in
>>> the US,  but we've seen this movie before. Pynchon wrote a novel about it.
>>> >>
>>> >> On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 7:37 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >> So send in ground troops? That won't work. More importantly, tt won't
>>> prevent the thing you most want to stop, the killing of citizens,
>>> non-combatants. War is not the answer. Peace is the answer. Can we make
>>> peace with all these parties and factions? No. So there is no way out of
>>> this. It will never end. We have to live with it best we can. Stop the
>>> bombing and droning, stop the funding and arms sales, stop tearing down
>>> governments, propping puppets. This won't wash the West of blood or absolve
>>> it from the bloody civil and regional wars that will continue, worsen
>>> perhaps, but art least the west can get on with the business of money.
>>> >>
>>> >> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 11:36 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>>> wrote:
>>> >> I never said Al Qaeda or BinLaden were responding in kind. I said
>>> Isis was. But I think it is you who fails to understand moral equivalence.
>>> You seem to think that The US can murder hundreds of thousands in a nation
>>> that neither attacked nor threatened them  and expect to be safe
>>> themselves. What about the wealthy 'freedom fighters' of recent US history
>>> and their idiotic reasons for starting wars. What about the mass killing in
>>> Gaza?  What about our support for Mubarak, the Shah, the Saudis. What about
>>> the estimated million children who starved due to our blockade of Iraq.
>>> What about our torture? Why isn’t the same kind of outrage over Paris
>>> directed at the US killing of Doctors and patients in the MSF hospital?
>>> Isn’t it that we don’t want to look at our own crimes and stupidity and
>>> violence, or to question the nasty behavior of the US military?
>>> >>
>>> >> Fuck america’s ignorant and murderous self-righteousness.  And the
>>> same for the French leader who started bombing in Libya and the ISIS
>>> territories. He risked his civilian citizens when he rained bombs on cities
>>> which have more non-combatant civilians than Isis fighters. What he did was
>>> just as bad as what they did.
>>> >>  The only way to fight a group like this without collective
>>> punishment is on the ground, following the Geneva accord to avoid civilian
>>> casualties, and followed by the kind of economic aid given to Japan and
>>> Germany. That is very costly, but the bombing is pure terrorism and  begets
>>> more of the same. Both Bush and Obama had the stated strategy , on which
>>> billions was spent, of training the Iraqi army to handle internal threats.
>>> Before that it was massive bombing and a large ground war. None of these
>>> strategies has brought the stated goals. Neither will this new bombing
>>> campaign.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> On Nov 25, 2015, at 9:14 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> " They" claimed?---not any I believed ...and ISIS out of Al---Qaeda
>>> would NOT have happened if we had not bombed? ( not that I believe we
>>> should have bombed Iraq, but I say nothing would have stopped ISIS from
>>> happening. And the most major difficulty is stopping/destroying a
>>> transnational group such as Al--Qaeda formed by a wealthy 'freedom fighter'
>>> who fought the Russians whose ideology held Westernism---your life and
>>> mine---as an evil in itself....and who " responded in kind" to our having
>>> military bases in Saudi Arabia, an ally, by knocking down the World Trade
>>> Center and killing 3000. “
>>> >>
>>> >> He claimed also to be responding to Israel’s treatment of
>>> Palestinians. Many westerners, avid for war, describe Islam in the same
>>> way,”an evil in itself". All militaristic cultures fill themselves with the
>>> same lies in order to control land, gain power and enrich themselves at
>>> others expense.
>>> >>> IN kind" shows you don't get " moral equivalence" in any way.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Sent from my iPad
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> On Nov 25, 2015, at 8:23 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> I think you are dreaming when it comes to Obama and global warming.
>>> Under enormous political pressure he finally canned the tar sands pipeline,
>>> but has dramatically increased fracking and continued gulf oil operations
>>> despite the spill and also opened the arctic. He talks one way and acts
>>> another in virtually every issue.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> The problem with bombing is it is wildly indiscriminate and kills
>>> many civilians.  US bombs in Syria have killed many more civilians than
>>> were killed in all Isis attacks on  westerners. We are also bombing and
>>> doing drone missile strikes in Yemen, Afghanistan, Africa etc.
>>> >>>> If you want to make war you need to do all that is possible to
>>> avoid civilian deaths or you are just terrorists with uniforms and jets.
>>> Collective punishment is evil.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> The sad truth is that the US is still the major planetary terrorist
>>> of the last 2 decades and ISIS is simply responding  in kind. You seem to
>>> approve of the very tactics that led to these attacks.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> The Syrian rebels you speak of have absorbed into ISIS or decimated
>>> to virtual non-existence.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> You want to imagine that this utterly horrible policy of solving
>>> all conflicts with bombs will magically work this time? They claimed it had
>>> worked in Iraq right up until ISIS proved them to be liars and idiots.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>> that does not destabilize us.
>>> >>>>> On Nov 25, 2015, at 7:29 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>> paris, beirut and the Russian plane show they are a global threat,
>>> >>>>> imho. I do not know what else
>>> >>>>> to do but soldiers on the ground means more deaths and no
>>> resolution
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Obama has clearly spoken against Us Military dominance. I do not
>>> know
>>> >>>>> how self-governance will take hold,
>>> >>>>> unless the Syrian rebels take down Assad and make it happen.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> The move off oil--and to other sources of energy---has been
>>> happening
>>> >>>>> and accelerated by Obama.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 6:47 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 25, 2015, at 4:40 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Is ISIS an existential global threat, in your mind. And what is
>>> to be
>>> >>>>>>> done if it is?
>>> >>>>>> ISIS has clearly reached its limits as a regional force and
>>> millions are fleeing the area. They are refugees from ISIS, from drought,
>>> from bombs,  from the Syrian army and from the Iraqi army. So the fact that
>>> ISIS is ruling by terror and ideological solidarity over such an
>>> inhospitable and deadly region is hardly an existential threat.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> What is to be done? Not bombs, not drones, not coalitions with
>>> the dictatorial monarchy that bred Isis and Al Qaeda. Not regime change
>>> with a new set of Generals and dickhead dictators. These have been tried
>>> again and again.  Our policies in  Vietnam, Afghanistan, Libya and Iraq
>>> have failed miserably, and yet more of that is what is proposed by Obama
>>> and the Republicans. Part of the problem here is that some things can’t be
>>> fixed any more than people can be brought back from the dead.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> If the nations of the earth truly want to disarm ISIS and bring
>>> justice to the region it would require ground troops with a high commitment
>>> to the Geneva conventions and a willingness to address the original
>>> injustices to regional Sunni Arabs.  Clearly the civil war between Shia and
>>> Sunni  Iraqis did not resolve the problems in Iraq  following the massive
>>> destruction of the war. Despite plenty of weapons, training and money the
>>> government of Iraq could not stop the seizure of control by the ISIS
>>> fighters.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> US policy needs to change dramatically away from global military
>>> dominance toward creating a working model of a just middle class peaceable
>>> multi-ethnic, tolerant  republic/democracy/ parliamentary
>>> socialism/whatever we choose in a reasonably non-corrupt self governing
>>> process. We need to lead toward renewable energy and local full spectrum
>>> green economies. Either we move toward something like that or we continue
>>> on the path to globally destructive wars for dominance, resource
>>> extraction, and an ecological death spiral.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 10:57 AM, Joseph Tracy <
>>> brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>> Calling people knuckle draggers may have some accuracy and
>>> offer some comic release, but are our problems really coming from the
>>> semi-literate? Is  the US Military and our campaigns of mass obliteration
>>> and drone warfare in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and now Isis controlled
>>> regions the product of semi-literacy or even the Republicans? The votes and
>>> financing came from both parties, many lawyers, many newspeople. My feeling
>>> is that Trump is just like Netanyahu, a shrewd public power broker who
>>> knows fear and war are the ultimate political drug, and voices openly the
>>> xenopobic hate mongering that produced the blowback.
>>> >>>>>>>> Many educated people are as addicted to denial and military
>>> violence and the racism of neglect as the more obviously ignorant followers
>>> of Trump and Cruz.. The Paris attacks have produced an ugly willingness to
>>> keep bombing regardless of how man regional civilians die, and that
>>> willingness goes across the political spectrum.
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> On Nov 24, 2015, at 8:09 PM, David Kilroy <
>>> thesaintgodard at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> "It's clear now that the Paris attacks enormously energized
>>> the Trumpist movement. He's now speculating openly about invading Syria.
>>> Trump's proposals have gone from overt prejudice to things literally taken
>>> out of late Weimar history — closure of mosques and a national Muslim
>>> database. The rank-and-file have both fed off and stoked this behavior.
>>> When a lone protester started chanting "black lives matter" at a Trump
>>> rally, Trumpists jumped him (he was luckily not badly injured). Trump later
>>> said, "Maybe he should have been roughed up." Hours later he lied about
>>> witnessing Muslim crowds celebrating 9/11, and retweeted nonsense racist
>>> garbage from a literal neo-Nazi."
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> http://theweek.com/articles/590497/donald-trumps-alarming-skid-toward-outright-fascism
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> After decades of being allowed to stockpile arms with
>>> increasingly little federal interference, a general escalation in the
>>> violent rhetoric of the right, and shrill sponsorship from the NRA,
>>> semiliterate knuckle-draggers are only too eager to start a race /
>>> "religious" war in the U.S., and the candidates, allowed to start their
>>> noisome campaigns two years in advance of an actual election, are only
>>> egging them on.
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> I live in a state where black churches were burned, in a city
>>> with clear color lines.  I'm not afraid of black people.  I'm afraid of
>>> shitheads teething for glory.
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 7:37 PM, David Kilroy <
>>> thesaintgodard at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>>> Apologies for harping on this point.  Know that I do.  But it
>>> frankly terrifies me.
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 7:17 PM, David Kilroy <
>>> thesaintgodard at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>>> (shades of Lot 49, too: recall the swastika armbands)
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 7:16 PM, David Kilroy <
>>> thesaintgodard at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>>> The tech sector's too "What, me worry?" about the problem.
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> Anonymity in comments threads, Craigslist, 4chan, Reddit et al
>>> permit open promulgation of hate speech.  Most sites, when confronted about
>>> the problem, cite free speech as a concern when the fact is they don't want
>>> to face the added hassle of verifying accounts and making people
>>> responsible for their words.
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> There's a massive network of these shitheads armed for a race
>>> riot and no-one seems to want to stop them.
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 5:05 PM, Steven Koteff <
>>> steviekoteff at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks a lot for this, Mark. Reading it now, and I agree with
>>> you. Very smart and sadder for it.
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 2:45 PM, Mark Kohut <
>>> mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>>> Charlie Pierce on the Powder Keg that is the United States of
>>> America
>>> >>>>>>>>> right now
>>> http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a39987/america-race-powderkeg/
>>> >>>>>>>>> …
>>> >>>>>>>>> -
>>> >>>>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> --
>>> >>>>>>>>> http://davidkilroy.tumblr.com/
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> --
>>> >>>>>>>>> http://davidkilroy.tumblr.com/
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> --
>>> >>>>>>>>> http://davidkilroy.tumblr.com/
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>>> --
>>> >>>>>>>>> http://davidkilroy.tumblr.com/
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> -
>>> >>>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>> >>>>>>> -
>>> >>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> -
>>> >>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> -
>>> >>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>> >>> -
>>> >>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list
>>> >>
>>> >> -
>>> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>> >
>>> > -
>>> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>> -
>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>
>>
>>
>
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