Brilliantly, sadly observed
ish mailian
ishmailian at gmail.com
Fri Nov 27 12:14:16 CST 2015
In looking through the revisionist, and Newest Left lens of history,
historians find implicate themselves in the martyrdom of the losers who
blow themselves up; they are co-conspirators, along with the US government
and the Saudi Arabians, in the immolation of radicalized Muslim youth.
On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 1:09 PM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com> wrote:
> I think that the attempt at moral equivalence is naive. Two examples we
> see all the time, Dresden and the atomic bombings of Japan are morally
> equivalent to the Holocaust and to Pearl Harbor. A slippery slope that
> comes with revisionist history. A method that, in admitting that it can't
> understand the past, but only construct a narrative about it, re-write it
> and revise it, fails to make distinctions and, most importantly, had great
> difficulty analyzing the present.
>
> More naive is the argument that the failure of the West to look at the
> atrocities it commits as equal to or greater than those committed against
> it, undermines the security of the West.
>
> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Ian Livingston <igrlivingston at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> > only an honest definition of the similarities and differences in what
>> the US and its allies are doing and have done and what the Muslim groups
>> are doing will begin the process of understanding.
>>
>> For the most part, I'm inclined to agree with Joseph, here, but this last
>> phrase from Ish really hits the mark, imo. No country in the West has
>> offered a full and coherent statement of their intentions in the Middle
>> East, and I have encountered none published here of what anti-Western
>> combatants and supporters earnestly desire as an outcome of their efforts
>> and sacrifices. The absence of understanding encourages resistance and
>> resistance, it seems inevitably, increases force. Mayhem ensues. It's not
>> even an effective means of population reduction. Understanding and
>> knowledge of the similarities the other shares with the self can unravel
>> conflict.
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 7:01 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Right. So, we can't use the word "terrorism" to describe the US atomic
>>> bombs dropped on Japan, any more than the term should be applied to the
>>> bombings of Iraq, Vietnam....the bombing of Doctors Without Boarders, of
>>> schools and so on by the US. Same goes for the US use of torture & Co.
>>>
>>> Too much distinction is lost, though, of course, the rhetorical use is
>>> effective, in a rant, say, or in a headline or propaganda film on Youtube.
>>>
>>> Those who call the US the greatest terrorist nation in the world may
>>> hope to turn the phrase, one the US and its allies use to demonize other
>>> nations and groups, and score a point, but only an honest definition of the
>>> similarities and differences in what the US and its allies are doing and
>>> have done and what the Muslim groups are doing will begin the process of
>>> understanding.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yeah, the U.S. Record is atrocious. Looking up bombing under the Geneva
>>>> conventions, one quickly learns what one knew: atomic bombs that ended WW2
>>>> were ...war crimes.
>>>>
>>>> No official international treaties cover strategic bombing. Principles
>>>> of necessity and proportionality and attempts to warn citizens are
>>>> governing principles.
>>>>
>>>> It's all a shithole of death.
>>>>
>>>> But courses have been changed. Some principles have been followed.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>
>>>> > On Nov 27, 2015, at 12:12 AM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > So what exactly does the word terrorism mean? Give me a definition.
>>>> >
>>>> > Also what is a “rant”.
>>>> >
>>>> > When you talk about what “we “ have been able to do since ww2, who
>>>> are you talking about. Do the politicians and CIA and Pentagon consult
>>>> with you. At any rate I find the international record of the US government
>>>> after ww2 to be mostly horrible.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> On Nov 26, 2015, at 8:31 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> The diversity of approaches can't be ignored, and labeling one, the
>>>> bombing and droning by America, for example, as "terrorism", while an
>>>> effective rhetorical strategy to counter the American propaganda that seeks
>>>> to paste this label on its current targets, is counterproductive.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> War, not only destroys communities, wastes resources, and so on, it
>>>> compounds the difficulties that are naturally and inherently present in
>>>> communication across cultures, as fundamental differences about human
>>>> communities become ideologically rigid by the exercise of power and the use
>>>> of violence and intimidation (terror).
>>>> >>
>>>> >> That said, the end of violence, while a necessary step, one that
>>>> will stop making matters worse, will also bring more complexity to the
>>>> problem, and even more approaches to solving it. The peace process will
>>>> admit more voices, more groups, more diversity.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Human rights, justice, independence, self-determination, security,
>>>> education, freedom....these are not going to flourish once the west ceases
>>>> the bombing and droning. To achieve these, is, of course, much more
>>>> difficult than waging wars.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Fortunately, we have some decent models. While never perfect, we can
>>>> look to what we have been able to do, since WWII, and work for a lasting
>>>> peace in this troubled region of the world. We will need Russia and China
>>>> and others to get it done. And, while I doubt it will happen, that's what
>>>> it will take. To dismiss the West and the whites, and smear them all with
>>>> trumpings makes for good headlines in a tabloid, rants.....nothing more....
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Aside from the ranting, there are advantages to the privileged who
>>>> can articulate their grievances and capitalize on the plight of the poor
>>>> and powerless, who are, of course, disproportionately, people of color in
>>>> the US, but we've seen this movie before. Pynchon wrote a novel about it.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 7:37 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >> So send in ground troops? That won't work. More importantly, tt
>>>> won't prevent the thing you most want to stop, the killing of citizens,
>>>> non-combatants. War is not the answer. Peace is the answer. Can we make
>>>> peace with all these parties and factions? No. So there is no way out of
>>>> this. It will never end. We have to live with it best we can. Stop the
>>>> bombing and droning, stop the funding and arms sales, stop tearing down
>>>> governments, propping puppets. This won't wash the West of blood or absolve
>>>> it from the bloody civil and regional wars that will continue, worsen
>>>> perhaps, but art least the west can get on with the business of money.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 11:36 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >> I never said Al Qaeda or BinLaden were responding in kind. I said
>>>> Isis was. But I think it is you who fails to understand moral equivalence.
>>>> You seem to think that The US can murder hundreds of thousands in a nation
>>>> that neither attacked nor threatened them and expect to be safe
>>>> themselves. What about the wealthy 'freedom fighters' of recent US history
>>>> and their idiotic reasons for starting wars. What about the mass killing in
>>>> Gaza? What about our support for Mubarak, the Shah, the Saudis. What about
>>>> the estimated million children who starved due to our blockade of Iraq.
>>>> What about our torture? Why isn’t the same kind of outrage over Paris
>>>> directed at the US killing of Doctors and patients in the MSF hospital?
>>>> Isn’t it that we don’t want to look at our own crimes and stupidity and
>>>> violence, or to question the nasty behavior of the US military?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Fuck america’s ignorant and murderous self-righteousness. And the
>>>> same for the French leader who started bombing in Libya and the ISIS
>>>> territories. He risked his civilian citizens when he rained bombs on cities
>>>> which have more non-combatant civilians than Isis fighters. What he did was
>>>> just as bad as what they did.
>>>> >> The only way to fight a group like this without collective
>>>> punishment is on the ground, following the Geneva accord to avoid civilian
>>>> casualties, and followed by the kind of economic aid given to Japan and
>>>> Germany. That is very costly, but the bombing is pure terrorism and begets
>>>> more of the same. Both Bush and Obama had the stated strategy , on which
>>>> billions was spent, of training the Iraqi army to handle internal threats.
>>>> Before that it was massive bombing and a large ground war. None of these
>>>> strategies has brought the stated goals. Neither will this new bombing
>>>> campaign.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> On Nov 25, 2015, at 9:14 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> " They" claimed?---not any I believed ...and ISIS out of Al---Qaeda
>>>> would NOT have happened if we had not bombed? ( not that I believe we
>>>> should have bombed Iraq, but I say nothing would have stopped ISIS from
>>>> happening. And the most major difficulty is stopping/destroying a
>>>> transnational group such as Al--Qaeda formed by a wealthy 'freedom fighter'
>>>> who fought the Russians whose ideology held Westernism---your life and
>>>> mine---as an evil in itself....and who " responded in kind" to our having
>>>> military bases in Saudi Arabia, an ally, by knocking down the World Trade
>>>> Center and killing 3000. “
>>>> >>
>>>> >> He claimed also to be responding to Israel’s treatment of
>>>> Palestinians. Many westerners, avid for war, describe Islam in the same
>>>> way,”an evil in itself". All militaristic cultures fill themselves with the
>>>> same lies in order to control land, gain power and enrich themselves at
>>>> others expense.
>>>> >>> IN kind" shows you don't get " moral equivalence" in any way.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Sent from my iPad
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> On Nov 25, 2015, at 8:23 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> I think you are dreaming when it comes to Obama and global
>>>> warming. Under enormous political pressure he finally canned the tar sands
>>>> pipeline, but has dramatically increased fracking and continued gulf oil
>>>> operations despite the spill and also opened the arctic. He talks one way
>>>> and acts another in virtually every issue.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> The problem with bombing is it is wildly indiscriminate and kills
>>>> many civilians. US bombs in Syria have killed many more civilians than
>>>> were killed in all Isis attacks on westerners. We are also bombing and
>>>> doing drone missile strikes in Yemen, Afghanistan, Africa etc.
>>>> >>>> If you want to make war you need to do all that is possible to
>>>> avoid civilian deaths or you are just terrorists with uniforms and jets.
>>>> Collective punishment is evil.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> The sad truth is that the US is still the major planetary
>>>> terrorist of the last 2 decades and ISIS is simply responding in kind. You
>>>> seem to approve of the very tactics that led to these attacks.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> The Syrian rebels you speak of have absorbed into ISIS or
>>>> decimated to virtual non-existence.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> You want to imagine that this utterly horrible policy of solving
>>>> all conflicts with bombs will magically work this time? They claimed it had
>>>> worked in Iraq right up until ISIS proved them to be liars and idiots.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>> that does not destabilize us.
>>>> >>>>> On Nov 25, 2015, at 7:29 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>> paris, beirut and the Russian plane show they are a global threat,
>>>> >>>>> imho. I do not know what else
>>>> >>>>> to do but soldiers on the ground means more deaths and no
>>>> resolution
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Obama has clearly spoken against Us Military dominance. I do not
>>>> know
>>>> >>>>> how self-governance will take hold,
>>>> >>>>> unless the Syrian rebels take down Assad and make it happen.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> The move off oil--and to other sources of energy---has been
>>>> happening
>>>> >>>>> and accelerated by Obama.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 6:47 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 25, 2015, at 4:40 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> Is ISIS an existential global threat, in your mind. And what is
>>>> to be
>>>> >>>>>>> done if it is?
>>>> >>>>>> ISIS has clearly reached its limits as a regional force and
>>>> millions are fleeing the area. They are refugees from ISIS, from drought,
>>>> from bombs, from the Syrian army and from the Iraqi army. So the fact that
>>>> ISIS is ruling by terror and ideological solidarity over such an
>>>> inhospitable and deadly region is hardly an existential threat.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> What is to be done? Not bombs, not drones, not coalitions with
>>>> the dictatorial monarchy that bred Isis and Al Qaeda. Not regime change
>>>> with a new set of Generals and dickhead dictators. These have been tried
>>>> again and again. Our policies in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Libya and Iraq
>>>> have failed miserably, and yet more of that is what is proposed by Obama
>>>> and the Republicans. Part of the problem here is that some things can’t be
>>>> fixed any more than people can be brought back from the dead.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> If the nations of the earth truly want to disarm ISIS and bring
>>>> justice to the region it would require ground troops with a high commitment
>>>> to the Geneva conventions and a willingness to address the original
>>>> injustices to regional Sunni Arabs. Clearly the civil war between Shia and
>>>> Sunni Iraqis did not resolve the problems in Iraq following the massive
>>>> destruction of the war. Despite plenty of weapons, training and money the
>>>> government of Iraq could not stop the seizure of control by the ISIS
>>>> fighters.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> US policy needs to change dramatically away from global military
>>>> dominance toward creating a working model of a just middle class peaceable
>>>> multi-ethnic, tolerant republic/democracy/ parliamentary
>>>> socialism/whatever we choose in a reasonably non-corrupt self governing
>>>> process. We need to lead toward renewable energy and local full spectrum
>>>> green economies. Either we move toward something like that or we continue
>>>> on the path to globally destructive wars for dominance, resource
>>>> extraction, and an ecological death spiral.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 10:57 AM, Joseph Tracy <
>>>> brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>> Calling people knuckle draggers may have some accuracy and
>>>> offer some comic release, but are our problems really coming from the
>>>> semi-literate? Is the US Military and our campaigns of mass obliteration
>>>> and drone warfare in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and now Isis controlled
>>>> regions the product of semi-literacy or even the Republicans? The votes and
>>>> financing came from both parties, many lawyers, many newspeople. My feeling
>>>> is that Trump is just like Netanyahu, a shrewd public power broker who
>>>> knows fear and war are the ultimate political drug, and voices openly the
>>>> xenopobic hate mongering that produced the blowback.
>>>> >>>>>>>> Many educated people are as addicted to denial and military
>>>> violence and the racism of neglect as the more obviously ignorant followers
>>>> of Trump and Cruz.. The Paris attacks have produced an ugly willingness to
>>>> keep bombing regardless of how man regional civilians die, and that
>>>> willingness goes across the political spectrum.
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Nov 24, 2015, at 8:09 PM, David Kilroy <
>>>> thesaintgodard at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> "It's clear now that the Paris attacks enormously energized
>>>> the Trumpist movement. He's now speculating openly about invading Syria.
>>>> Trump's proposals have gone from overt prejudice to things literally taken
>>>> out of late Weimar history — closure of mosques and a national Muslim
>>>> database. The rank-and-file have both fed off and stoked this behavior.
>>>> When a lone protester started chanting "black lives matter" at a Trump
>>>> rally, Trumpists jumped him (he was luckily not badly injured). Trump later
>>>> said, "Maybe he should have been roughed up." Hours later he lied about
>>>> witnessing Muslim crowds celebrating 9/11, and retweeted nonsense racist
>>>> garbage from a literal neo-Nazi."
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> http://theweek.com/articles/590497/donald-trumps-alarming-skid-toward-outright-fascism
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> After decades of being allowed to stockpile arms with
>>>> increasingly little federal interference, a general escalation in the
>>>> violent rhetoric of the right, and shrill sponsorship from the NRA,
>>>> semiliterate knuckle-draggers are only too eager to start a race /
>>>> "religious" war in the U.S., and the candidates, allowed to start their
>>>> noisome campaigns two years in advance of an actual election, are only
>>>> egging them on.
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> I live in a state where black churches were burned, in a city
>>>> with clear color lines. I'm not afraid of black people. I'm afraid of
>>>> shitheads teething for glory.
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 7:37 PM, David Kilroy <
>>>> thesaintgodard at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Apologies for harping on this point. Know that I do. But it
>>>> frankly terrifies me.
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 7:17 PM, David Kilroy <
>>>> thesaintgodard at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>>> (shades of Lot 49, too: recall the swastika armbands)
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 7:16 PM, David Kilroy <
>>>> thesaintgodard at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>>> The tech sector's too "What, me worry?" about the problem.
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Anonymity in comments threads, Craigslist, 4chan, Reddit et
>>>> al permit open promulgation of hate speech. Most sites, when confronted
>>>> about the problem, cite free speech as a concern when the fact is they
>>>> don't want to face the added hassle of verifying accounts and making people
>>>> responsible for their words.
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> There's a massive network of these shitheads armed for a race
>>>> riot and no-one seems to want to stop them.
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 5:05 PM, Steven Koteff <
>>>> steviekoteff at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks a lot for this, Mark. Reading it now, and I agree with
>>>> you. Very smart and sadder for it.
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 2:45 PM, Mark Kohut <
>>>> mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Charlie Pierce on the Powder Keg that is the United States of
>>>> America
>>>> >>>>>>>>> right now
>>>> http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a39987/america-race-powderkeg/
>>>> >>>>>>>>> …
>>>> >>>>>>>>> -
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> --
>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://davidkilroy.tumblr.com/
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> --
>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://davidkilroy.tumblr.com/
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> --
>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://davidkilroy.tumblr.com/
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> --
>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://davidkilroy.tumblr.com/
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> -
>>>> >>>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>> >>>>>>> -
>>>> >>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> -
>>>> >>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> -
>>>> >>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>>> >>> -
>>>> >>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list
>>>> >>
>>>> >> -
>>>> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>> >
>>>> > -
>>>> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>>> -
>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
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