Brilliantly, sadly observed

Fri Nov 27 15:25:24 CST 2015

Thinking back to the Tet offensive.  An act of desperation for them
but the end for us.

On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 4:08 PM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com> wrote:
> Not quite the JV team the US President called them, ISIS will be a footnote
> in history. It's almost over. Notice the desperation?
>
> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 4:04 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/
>>
>>
>> On Friday, November 27, 2015, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Read Atlantic's article "What ISIS Wants."  The key takeaway is that ISIS
>>> needs expanding territory in order to not over milk limited $$ of a finite
>>> turf.  ISIS needs nonetheless, but w/o expanded turf, it will crumble from
>>> within.  It will be overthrown from within.
>>>
>>> David Morris
>>>
>>> On Friday, November 27, 2015, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I think, in the simplest terms,  what  the Middle East wants is for
>>>> the West to just buy oil and otherwise mind its own business.  The
>>>> West can't do that. There's that persistent and to them quite sinister
>>>> thing from our Christian past, that of Conversion. And by the sword if
>>>> necessary.  Make everyone think and behave like the West. I guess the
>>>> only possible next move is the good old tried and true Peace Process.
>>>> It might only slow things down course.  Peace yesterday, peace
>>>> tomorrow. Only the peace process today.
>>>>
>>>> P
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Ian Livingston
>>>> <igrlivingston at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> only an honest definition of the similarities and differences in what
>>>> >> the
>>>> >> US and its allies are doing and have done and what the Muslim groups
>>>> >> are
>>>> >> doing will begin the process of understanding.
>>>> >
>>>> > For the most part, I'm inclined to agree with Joseph, here, but this
>>>> > last
>>>> > phrase from Ish really hits the mark, imo. No country in the West has
>>>> > offered a full and coherent statement of their intentions in the
>>>> > Middle
>>>> > East, and I have encountered none published here of what anti-Western
>>>> > combatants and supporters earnestly desire as an outcome of their
>>>> > efforts
>>>> > and sacrifices. The absence of understanding encourages resistance and
>>>> > resistance, it seems inevitably, increases force. Mayhem ensues. It's
>>>> > not
>>>> > even an effective means of population reduction. Understanding and
>>>> > knowledge
>>>> > of the similarities the other shares with the self can unravel
>>>> > conflict.
>>>> >
>>>> > On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 7:01 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com>
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Right. So, we can't use the word "terrorism" to describe the US
>>>> >> atomic
>>>> >> bombs dropped on Japan, any more than the term should be applied to
>>>> >> the
>>>> >> bombings of Iraq, Vietnam....the bombing of Doctors Without Boarders,
>>>> >> of
>>>> >> schools and so on by the US. Same goes for the US use of torture &
>>>> >> Co.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Too much distinction is lost, though, of course, the rhetorical use
>>>> >> is
>>>> >> effective, in a rant, say, or in a headline or propaganda film on
>>>> >> Youtube.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Those who call the US the greatest terrorist nation in the world may
>>>> >> hope
>>>> >> to turn the phrase, one the US and its allies use to demonize other
>>>> >> nations
>>>> >> and groups, and score a point, but only an honest definition of the
>>>> >> similarities and differences in what the US and its allies are doing
>>>> >> and
>>>> >> have done and what the Muslim groups are doing will begin the process
>>>> >> of
>>>> >> understanding.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>> >> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Yeah, the U.S. Record is atrocious. Looking up bombing under the
>>>> >>> Geneva
>>>> >>> conventions, one quickly learns what one knew: atomic bombs that
>>>> >>> ended WW2
>>>> >>> were ...war crimes.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> No official international treaties cover strategic bombing.
>>>> >>> Principles of
>>>> >>> necessity and proportionality and attempts to warn citizens are
>>>> >>> governing
>>>> >>> principles.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> It's all a shithole of death.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> But courses have been changed. Some principles have been followed.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Sent from my iPad
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> > On Nov 27, 2015, at 12:12 AM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>>>> >>> > wrote:
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > So what exactly does the word terrorism mean? Give me a
>>>> >>> > definition.
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > Also what is a  “rant”.
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > When you talk about what “we “ have been able to do since ww2, who
>>>> >>> > are
>>>> >>> > you talking  about. Do the politicians and CIA and Pentagon
>>>> >>> > consult with
>>>> >>> > you. At any rate I find the international record of the US
>>>> >>> > government after
>>>> >>> > ww2 to be mostly horrible.
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >> On Nov 26, 2015, at 8:31 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com>
>>>> >>> >> wrote:
>>>> >>> >>
>>>> >>> >> The diversity of approaches  can't be ignored, and labeling one,
>>>> >>> >> the
>>>> >>> >> bombing and droning by America, for example, as "terrorism",
>>>> >>> >> while an
>>>> >>> >> effective rhetorical strategy to counter the American propaganda
>>>> >>> >> that seeks
>>>> >>> >> to paste this label on its current targets, is counterproductive.
>>>> >>> >>
>>>> >>> >> War, not only destroys communities, wastes resources, and so on,
>>>> >>> >> it
>>>> >>> >> compounds the difficulties that are naturally and inherently
>>>> >>> >> present in
>>>> >>> >> communication across cultures, as fundamental differences about
>>>> >>> >> human
>>>> >>> >> communities become ideologically rigid by the exercise of power
>>>> >>> >> and the use
>>>> >>> >> of violence and intimidation (terror).
>>>> >>> >>
>>>> >>> >> That said, the end of violence, while a necessary step, one that
>>>> >>> >> will
>>>> >>> >> stop making matters worse, will also bring more complexity to the
>>>> >>> >> problem,
>>>> >>> >> and even more approaches to solving it. The peace process will
>>>> >>> >> admit more
>>>> >>> >> voices, more groups, more diversity.
>>>> >>> >>
>>>> >>> >> Human rights, justice, independence, self-determination,
>>>> >>> >> security,
>>>> >>> >> education, freedom....these are not going to flourish once the
>>>> >>> >> west ceases
>>>> >>> >> the bombing and droning. To achieve these, is, of course,  much
>>>> >>> >> more
>>>> >>> >> difficult than waging wars.
>>>> >>> >>
>>>> >>> >> Fortunately, we have some decent models. While never perfect, we
>>>> >>> >> can
>>>> >>> >> look to what we have been able to do, since WWII, and work for a
>>>> >>> >> lasting
>>>> >>> >> peace in this troubled region of the world. We will need Russia
>>>> >>> >> and China
>>>> >>> >> and others to get it done. And, while  I doubt it will happen,
>>>> >>> >> that's what
>>>> >>> >> it will take. To dismiss the West and the whites, and smear them
>>>> >>> >> all with
>>>> >>> >> trumpings makes for good headlines in a tabloid,
>>>> >>> >> rants.....nothing more....
>>>> >>> >>
>>>> >>> >> Aside from the ranting, there are advantages to the privileged
>>>> >>> >> who can
>>>> >>> >> articulate their grievances and capitalize on the plight of the
>>>> >>> >> poor and
>>>> >>> >> powerless, who are, of course, disproportionately, people of
>>>> >>> >> color in the
>>>> >>> >> US,  but we've seen this movie before. Pynchon wrote a novel
>>>> >>> >> about it.
>>>> >>> >>
>>>> >>> >> On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 7:37 AM, ish mailian
>>>> >>> >> <ishmailian at gmail.com>
>>>> >>> >> wrote:
>>>> >>> >> So send in ground troops? That won't work. More importantly, tt
>>>> >>> >> won't
>>>> >>> >> prevent the thing you most want to stop, the killing of citizens,
>>>> >>> >> non-combatants. War is not the answer. Peace is the answer. Can
>>>> >>> >> we make
>>>> >>> >> peace with all these parties and factions? No. So there is no way
>>>> >>> >> out of
>>>> >>> >> this. It will never end. We have to live with it best we can.
>>>> >>> >> Stop the
>>>> >>> >> bombing and droning, stop the funding and arms sales, stop
>>>> >>> >> tearing down
>>>> >>> >> governments, propping puppets. This won't wash the West of blood
>>>> >>> >> or absolve
>>>> >>> >> it from the bloody civil and regional wars that will continue,
>>>> >>> >> worsen
>>>> >>> >> perhaps, but art least the west can get on with the business of
>>>> >>> >> money.
>>>> >>> >>
>>>> >>> >> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 11:36 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>>>> >>> >> wrote:
>>>> >>> >> I never said Al Qaeda or BinLaden were responding in kind. I said
>>>> >>> >> Isis
>>>> >>> >> was. But I think it is you who fails to understand moral
>>>> >>> >> equivalence. You
>>>> >>> >> seem to think that The US can murder hundreds of thousands in a
>>>> >>> >> nation that
>>>> >>> >> neither attacked nor threatened them  and expect to be safe
>>>> >>> >> themselves. What
>>>> >>> >> about the wealthy 'freedom fighters' of recent US history and
>>>> >>> >> their idiotic
>>>> >>> >> reasons for starting wars. What about the mass killing in Gaza?
>>>> >>> >> What about
>>>> >>> >> our support for Mubarak, the Shah, the Saudis. What about the
>>>> >>> >> estimated
>>>> >>> >> million children who starved due to our blockade of Iraq. What
>>>> >>> >> about our
>>>> >>> >> torture? Why isn’t the same kind of outrage over Paris directed
>>>> >>> >> at the US
>>>> >>> >> killing of Doctors and patients in the MSF hospital? Isn’t it
>>>> >>> >> that we don’t
>>>> >>> >> want to look at our own crimes and stupidity and violence, or to
>>>> >>> >> question
>>>> >>> >> the nasty behavior of the US military?
>>>> >>> >>
>>>> >>> >> Fuck america’s ignorant and murderous self-righteousness.  And
>>>> >>> >> the
>>>> >>> >> same for the French leader who started bombing in Libya and the
>>>> >>> >> ISIS
>>>> >>> >> territories. He risked his civilian citizens when he rained bombs
>>>> >>> >> on cities
>>>> >>> >> which have more non-combatant civilians than Isis fighters. What
>>>> >>> >> he did was
>>>> >>> >> just as bad as what they did.
>>>> >>> >>  The only way to fight a group like this without collective
>>>> >>> >> punishment
>>>> >>> >> is on the ground, following the Geneva accord to avoid civilian
>>>> >>> >> casualties,
>>>> >>> >> and followed by the kind of economic aid given to Japan and
>>>> >>> >> Germany. That is
>>>> >>> >> very costly, but the bombing is pure terrorism and  begets more
>>>> >>> >> of the same.
>>>> >>> >> Both Bush and Obama had the stated strategy , on which billions
>>>> >>> >> was spent,
>>>> >>> >> of training the Iraqi army to handle internal threats. Before
>>>> >>> >> that it was
>>>> >>> >> massive bombing and a large ground war. None of these strategies
>>>> >>> >> has brought
>>>> >>> >> the stated goals. Neither will this new bombing campaign.
>>>> >>> >>
>>>> >>> >>
>>>> >>> >>> On Nov 25, 2015, at 9:14 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>> >>> >>> wrote:
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>> >>> " They" claimed?---not any I believed ...and ISIS out of
>>>> >>> >>> Al---Qaeda
>>>> >>> >>> would NOT have happened if we had not bombed? ( not that I
>>>> >>> >>> believe we should
>>>> >>> >>> have bombed Iraq, but I say nothing would have stopped ISIS from
>>>> >>> >>> happening.
>>>> >>> >>> And the most major difficulty is stopping/destroying a
>>>> >>> >>> transnational group
>>>> >>> >>> such as Al--Qaeda formed by a wealthy 'freedom fighter' who
>>>> >>> >>> fought the
>>>> >>> >>> Russians whose ideology held Westernism---your life and
>>>> >>> >>> mine---as an evil in
>>>> >>> >>> itself....and who " responded in kind" to our having military
>>>> >>> >>> bases in Saudi
>>>> >>> >>> Arabia, an ally, by knocking down the World Trade Center and
>>>> >>> >>> killing 3000. “
>>>> >>> >>
>>>> >>> >> He claimed also to be responding to Israel’s treatment of
>>>> >>> >> Palestinians. Many westerners, avid for war, describe Islam in
>>>> >>> >> the same
>>>> >>> >> way,”an evil in itself". All militaristic cultures fill
>>>> >>> >> themselves with the
>>>> >>> >> same lies in order to control land, gain power and enrich
>>>> >>> >> themselves at
>>>> >>> >> others expense.
>>>> >>> >>> IN kind" shows you don't get " moral equivalence" in any way.
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>> >>>> On Nov 25, 2015, at 8:23 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>>>> >>> >>>> wrote:
>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>> >>> >>>> I think you are dreaming when it comes to Obama and global
>>>> >>> >>>> warming.
>>>> >>> >>>> Under enormous political pressure he finally canned the tar
>>>> >>> >>>> sands pipeline,
>>>> >>> >>>> but has dramatically increased fracking and continued gulf oil
>>>> >>> >>>> operations
>>>> >>> >>>> despite the spill and also opened the arctic. He talks one way
>>>> >>> >>>> and acts
>>>> >>> >>>> another in virtually every issue.
>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>> >>> >>>> The problem with bombing is it is wildly indiscriminate and
>>>> >>> >>>> kills
>>>> >>> >>>> many civilians.  US bombs in Syria have killed many more
>>>> >>> >>>> civilians than were
>>>> >>> >>>> killed in all Isis attacks on  westerners. We are also bombing
>>>> >>> >>>> and doing
>>>> >>> >>>> drone missile strikes in Yemen, Afghanistan, Africa etc.
>>>> >>> >>>> If you want to make war you need to do all that is possible to
>>>> >>> >>>> avoid
>>>> >>> >>>> civilian deaths or you are just terrorists with uniforms and
>>>> >>> >>>> jets.
>>>> >>> >>>> Collective punishment is evil.
>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>> >>> >>>> The sad truth is that the US is still the major planetary
>>>> >>> >>>> terrorist
>>>> >>> >>>> of the last 2 decades and ISIS is simply responding  in kind.
>>>> >>> >>>> You seem to
>>>> >>> >>>> approve of the very tactics that led to these attacks.
>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>> >>> >>>> The Syrian rebels you speak of have absorbed into ISIS or
>>>> >>> >>>> decimated
>>>> >>> >>>> to virtual non-existence.
>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>> >>> >>>> You want to imagine that this utterly horrible policy of
>>>> >>> >>>> solving all
>>>> >>> >>>> conflicts with bombs will magically work this time? They
>>>> >>> >>>> claimed it had
>>>> >>> >>>> worked in Iraq right up until ISIS proved them to be liars and
>>>> >>> >>>> idiots.
>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>> that does not destabilize us.
>>>> >>> >>>>> On Nov 25, 2015, at 7:29 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>> >>> >>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>> >>>>> paris, beirut and the Russian plane show they are a global
>>>> >>> >>>>> threat,
>>>> >>> >>>>> imho. I do not know what else
>>>> >>> >>>>> to do but soldiers on the ground means more deaths and no
>>>> >>> >>>>> resolution
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>> Obama has clearly spoken against Us Military dominance. I do
>>>> >>> >>>>> not
>>>> >>> >>>>> know
>>>> >>> >>>>> how self-governance will take hold,
>>>> >>> >>>>> unless the Syrian rebels take down Assad and make it happen.
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>> The move off oil--and to other sources of energy---has been
>>>> >>> >>>>> happening
>>>> >>> >>>>> and accelerated by Obama.
>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 6:47 PM, Joseph Tracy
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> <brook7 at sover.net>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> On Nov 25, 2015, at 4:40 PM, Mark Kohut
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Is ISIS an existential global threat, in your mind. And what
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> is
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> to be
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> done if it is?
>>>> >>> >>>>>> ISIS has clearly reached its limits as a regional force and
>>>> >>> >>>>>> millions are fleeing the area. They are refugees from ISIS,
>>>> >>> >>>>>> from drought,
>>>> >>> >>>>>> from bombs,  from the Syrian army and from the Iraqi army. So
>>>> >>> >>>>>> the fact that
>>>> >>> >>>>>> ISIS is ruling by terror and ideological solidarity over such
>>>> >>> >>>>>> an
>>>> >>> >>>>>> inhospitable and deadly region is hardly an existential
>>>> >>> >>>>>> threat.
>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>> What is to be done? Not bombs, not drones, not coalitions
>>>> >>> >>>>>> with the
>>>> >>> >>>>>> dictatorial monarchy that bred Isis and Al Qaeda. Not regime
>>>> >>> >>>>>> change with a
>>>> >>> >>>>>> new set of Generals and dickhead dictators. These have been
>>>> >>> >>>>>> tried again and
>>>> >>> >>>>>> again.  Our policies in  Vietnam, Afghanistan, Libya and Iraq
>>>> >>> >>>>>> have failed
>>>> >>> >>>>>> miserably, and yet more of that is what is proposed by Obama
>>>> >>> >>>>>> and the
>>>> >>> >>>>>> Republicans. Part of the problem here is that some things
>>>> >>> >>>>>> can’t be fixed any
>>>> >>> >>>>>> more than people can be brought back from the dead.
>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>> If the nations of the earth truly want to disarm ISIS and
>>>> >>> >>>>>> bring
>>>> >>> >>>>>> justice to the region it would require ground troops with a
>>>> >>> >>>>>> high commitment
>>>> >>> >>>>>> to the Geneva conventions and a willingness to address the
>>>> >>> >>>>>> original
>>>> >>> >>>>>> injustices to regional Sunni Arabs.  Clearly the civil war
>>>> >>> >>>>>> between Shia and
>>>> >>> >>>>>> Sunni  Iraqis did not resolve the problems in Iraq  following
>>>> >>> >>>>>> the massive
>>>> >>> >>>>>> destruction of the war. Despite plenty of weapons, training
>>>> >>> >>>>>> and money the
>>>> >>> >>>>>> government of Iraq could not stop the seizure of control by
>>>> >>> >>>>>> the ISIS
>>>> >>> >>>>>> fighters.
>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>> US policy needs to change dramatically away from global
>>>> >>> >>>>>> military
>>>> >>> >>>>>> dominance toward creating a working model of a just middle
>>>> >>> >>>>>> class peaceable
>>>> >>> >>>>>> multi-ethnic, tolerant  republic/democracy/ parliamentary
>>>> >>> >>>>>> socialism/whatever
>>>> >>> >>>>>> we choose in a reasonably non-corrupt self governing process.
>>>> >>> >>>>>> We need to
>>>> >>> >>>>>> lead toward renewable energy and local full spectrum green
>>>> >>> >>>>>> economies. Either
>>>> >>> >>>>>> we move toward something like that or we continue on the path
>>>> >>> >>>>>> to globally
>>>> >>> >>>>>> destructive wars for dominance, resource extraction, and an
>>>> >>> >>>>>> ecological death
>>>> >>> >>>>>> spiral.
>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 10:57 AM, Joseph Tracy
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Calling people knuckle draggers may have some accuracy and
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> offer
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> some comic release, but are our problems really coming from
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> the
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> semi-literate? Is  the US Military and our campaigns of
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> mass obliteration
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> and drone warfare in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and now Isis
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> controlled
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> regions the product of semi-literacy or even the
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Republicans? The votes and
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> financing came from both parties, many lawyers, many
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> newspeople. My feeling
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> is that Trump is just like Netanyahu, a shrewd public power
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> broker who knows
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> fear and war are the ultimate political drug, and voices
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> openly the
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> xenopobic hate mongering that produced the blowback.
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Many educated people are as addicted to denial and military
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> violence and the racism of neglect as the more obviously
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> ignorant followers
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> of Trump and Cruz.. The Paris attacks have produced an ugly
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> willingness to
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> keep bombing regardless of how man regional civilians die,
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> and that
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> willingness goes across the political spectrum.
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> On Nov 24, 2015, at 8:09 PM, David Kilroy
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> <thesaintgodard at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> "It's clear now that the Paris attacks enormously
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> energized the
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> Trumpist movement. He's now speculating openly about
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> invading Syria. Trump's
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> proposals have gone from overt prejudice to things
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> literally taken out of
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> late Weimar history — closure of mosques and a national
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> Muslim database. The
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> rank-and-file have both fed off and stoked this behavior.
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> When a lone
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> protester started chanting "black lives matter" at a Trump
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> rally, Trumpists
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> jumped him (he was luckily not badly injured). Trump later
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> said, "Maybe he
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> should have been roughed up." Hours later he lied about
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> witnessing Muslim
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> crowds celebrating 9/11, and retweeted nonsense racist
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> garbage from a
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> literal neo-Nazi."
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> http://theweek.com/articles/590497/donald-trumps-alarming-skid-toward-outright-fascism
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> After decades of being allowed to stockpile arms with
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> increasingly little federal interference, a general
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> escalation in the
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> violent rhetoric of the right, and shrill sponsorship from
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> the NRA,
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> semiliterate knuckle-draggers are only too eager to start
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> a race /
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> "religious" war in the U.S., and the candidates, allowed
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> to start their
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> noisome campaigns two years in advance of an actual
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> election, are only
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> egging them on.
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> I live in a state where black churches were burned, in a
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> city
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> with clear color lines.  I'm not afraid of black people.
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> I'm afraid of
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> shitheads teething for glory.
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 7:37 PM, David Kilroy
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> <thesaintgodard at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> Apologies for harping on this point.  Know that I do.  But
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> it
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> frankly terrifies me.
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 7:17 PM, David Kilroy
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> <thesaintgodard at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> (shades of Lot 49, too: recall the swastika armbands)
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 7:16 PM, David Kilroy
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> <thesaintgodard at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> The tech sector's too "What, me worry?" about the problem.
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> Anonymity in comments threads, Craigslist, 4chan, Reddit
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> et al
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> permit open promulgation of hate speech.  Most sites, when
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> confronted about
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> the problem, cite free speech as a concern when the fact
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> is they don't want
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> to face the added hassle of verifying accounts and making
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> people responsible
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> for their words.
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> There's a massive network of these shitheads armed for a
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> race
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> riot and no-one seems to want to stop them.
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 5:05 PM, Steven Koteff
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> <steviekoteff at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks a lot for this, Mark. Reading it now, and I agree
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> with
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> you. Very smart and sadder for it.
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 2:45 PM, Mark Kohut
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> Charlie Pierce on the Powder Keg that is the United States
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> of
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> America
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> right now
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a39987/america-race-powderkeg/
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> …
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> -
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> --
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> http://davidkilroy.tumblr.com/
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> --
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> http://davidkilroy.tumblr.com/
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> --
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> http://davidkilroy.tumblr.com/
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> --
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> http://davidkilroy.tumblr.com/
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> -
>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> -
>>>> >>> >>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list
>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>> >>>>>> -
>>>> >>> >>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>> >>> >>>> -
>>>> >>> >>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>>> >>> >>> -
>>>> >>> >>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list
>>>> >>> >>
>>>> >>> >> -
>>>> >>> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > -
>>>> >>> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>>> >>> -
>>>> >>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> -
>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>
>
-
Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l