Brilliantly, sadly observed

Sun Nov 29 19:20:32 CST 2015

Well said.

On Sunday, November 29, 2015, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:

> "Originated elsewhere” ?  Where. Before  W ’s war, the Sunni arabs were
> prospering in Iraq and dominated the leadership class. They also were
> dominant in the Iraqi military. Several reports based on interviews say the
> origin of ISIS was in Abu Graibh among Sunni military humiliated and
> tortured there.  It is also clear that one of the major boosts of their
> military power were weapons supplied by Saudis and the US to topple Syria.
> They used it to gain dominance in the Syrian resistance and began to claim
> territory with oil fields. It is unlikely that the primary drive is
> religious, religion is simply a force for identity and unity. Also wahabism
> of some version appeals to Saudi weapons suppliers.  Isis is led by those
> who had power once and are re-claiming it using the tactics of the region
> used by Iraq, Syria,Turkey, the US, and Saudi Arabia.
>
> What US policies in particular led to the creation of ISIS?  1)we ok’d the
> idea of seizing land through war by provoking and helping the Iraqi war on
> Iran 2) We exemplified this pattern in Afghanistan and Iraq after 9/11
> despite the lack of any credible threat from anyone but the actual Al Qaeda
> group  3) We humiliated the Sunni military and the Iraqi bureaucracy by
> refusing them a role in a transition 4) we allowed their historic treasures
> to be looted 5) we further humiliated them through torture and the mass
> killing of civilians.  6) Instead of seeking to establish a shared  Sunni
> /Shia political system we allowed and then fostered a religious civil war,
> largely dispossessing the Sunnis  7) we then tolerated the The unequal
> distribution of state money by the Shia majority government  8) we indulged
> in a half-baked propagandistic scheme for regime change in Syria, ignoring
> what was really happening 9) we generated a large scale program of drone
> warfare, killing many civilians along with militants in Yemen, Afghanistan,
> Pakistan, Africa   almost entirely focused on Islamic groups.
>
>
> > On Nov 29, 2015, at 12:34 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >
> > Was it? in an origins sense or just in the sense of allowed it to grow
> so fast and inhabit land--key to caliphate according to Wood in that
> Atlantic piece.
> >
> > Even in that piece and elsewhere--see wikipedia--Daesh is said to have
> originated earlier elsewhere and as a kind of heresy of Al--Qaeda ( itself
> a rationalization for wholesale murder for religious reasons born of
> Wahhabiism from the 20s. In Saudi Arabia ( and out of Egypt?)
> >
> > So, ISIS is WAHABIISM, after religious " evolutions" ????
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Nov 28, 2015, at 3:13 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >
> >> Was not Daesh birthed by the U.S. Action in Iraq?
> >> Why is that not correct?
> >>
> >> David Morris
> >>
> >> On Saturday, November 28, 2015, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >> My bad. The arguments advanced are unsophisticated, too focused on the
> rants and sound bites, the trite and worn out phrases in the media. We, the
> US, did not give birth to ISIS. Repeating this mantra of the media, pasting
> the terrorism label on the West...etc.... undermines the thesis, one that I
> agree with, but one that requires that the facts are set out and not
> muddled by the passions.
> >>
> >> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 8:14 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >> These are not arguments, they are insults; sound bite, rant, hand
> wringing, naive.  You are not getting published, and are not a respected
> political voice and there are many highly qualified observers who say
> fundamentally what I am saying. This POV is not a product of naivety but of
> sane and equable moral evaluation. You talk as though The US army and
> commerce brings peace and stability wherever it goes, but there is a
> shitload of evidence against that premise. It is the mainstream press that
> is suspect and produces reams of meaningless propaganda and is most often
> caught lying, along with the military.
> >> > On Nov 27, 2015, at 3:41 PM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Did we pretty much midwife an Islamic state? No. We did not. That is
> sound bite.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 1:17 PM, David Kilroy <
> thesaintgodard at gmail.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >> > Considering we pretty much midwived the existence of the Islamic
> State I don't think we merit much understanding.
> >> >
> >> > Not for a second saying the terrorists are right, but I understand
> precisely why we're perceived as the great satan.  Our government has done
> everything in its power to destabilize the middle east, murder & impoverish
> hundreds of thousands of people and it's an absolute fucking disgrace.
> >> >
> >> > http://thedollop.libsyn.com/122-the-iraq-war
> >> > 
> >> > Professional comedians can't even manage to make jokes about it.
> It's just an abysmal state of affairs.  Our government has made its
> citizenry complicit in wars where we refuse to keep a body count or allow
> ourselves to be held accountable to international law.  We've held POWs for
> over a decade without trial.  How has that made us secure?  MY GOVERNMENT
> HAS MADE ME COMPLICIT IN WAR CRIMES.  The people in Guantanamo are
> hostages, political pawns who have been abused physically & mentally, and
> no amount of therapy will heal that.  Call me naive all you want: this shit
> matters.  We look like fucking barbarians.
> >> >
> >> > The U.S. hasn't made things any more secure.  It's made American
> citizens targets wherever we go: U.S. policies have created a climate of
> hatred & danger for citizens traveling abroad.  It's infuriating.  We're
> losers for believing we're in any way righteous.
> >> >
> >>
> >> -
> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> >>
>
> -
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>
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