Brilliantly, sadly observed

[Mark Kohut]

if we the US have to be responsible for our allies Saudi Arabia
then....we got nothing. Wahhabiism started there
and much else and they feed ISIS money......

But if they have their own sovereignty, then..............................

On Sun, Nov 29, 2015 at 7:50 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
> "Originated elsewhere” ?  Where. Before  W ’s war, the Sunni arabs were prospering in Iraq and dominated the leadership class. They also were dominant in the Iraqi military. Several reports based on interviews say the origin of ISIS was in Abu Graibh among Sunni military humiliated and tortured there.  It is also clear that one of the major boosts of their military power were weapons supplied by Saudis and the US to topple Syria. They used it to gain dominance in the Syrian resistance and began to claim territory with oil fields. It is unlikely that the primary drive is religious, religion is simply a force for identity and unity. Also wahabism of some version appeals to Saudi weapons suppliers.  Isis is led by those who had power once and are re-claiming it using the tactics of the region used by Iraq, Syria,Turkey, the US, and Saudi Arabia.
>
> What US policies in particular led to the creation of ISIS?  1)we ok’d the idea of seizing land through war by provoking and helping the Iraqi war on Iran 2) We exemplified this pattern in Afghanistan and Iraq after 9/11 despite the lack of any credible threat from anyone but the actual Al Qaeda group  3) We humiliated the Sunni military and the Iraqi bureaucracy by refusing them a role in a transition 4) we allowed their historic treasures to be looted 5) we further humiliated them through torture and the mass killing of civilians.  6) Instead of seeking to establish a shared  Sunni /Shia political system we allowed and then fostered a religious civil war, largely dispossessing the Sunnis  7) we then tolerated the The unequal distribution of state money by the Shia majority government  8) we indulged in a half-baked propagandistic scheme for regime change in Syria, ignoring what was really happening 9) we generated a large scale program of drone warfare, killing many civilians along with militants in Yemen, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Africa   almost entirely focused on Islamic groups.
>
>
>> On Nov 29, 2015, at 12:34 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Was it? in an origins sense or just in the sense of allowed it to grow so fast and inhabit land--key to caliphate according to Wood in that Atlantic piece.
>>
>> Even in that piece and elsewhere--see wikipedia--Daesh is said to have originated earlier elsewhere and as a kind of heresy of Al--Qaeda ( itself a rationalization for wholesale murder for religious reasons born of Wahhabiism from the 20s. In Saudi Arabia ( and out of Egypt?)
>>
>> So, ISIS is WAHABIISM, after religious " evolutions" ????
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On Nov 28, 2015, at 3:13 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Was not Daesh birthed by the U.S. Action in Iraq?
>>> Why is that not correct?
>>>
>>> David Morris
>>>
>>> On Saturday, November 28, 2015, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> My bad. The arguments advanced are unsophisticated, too focused on the rants and sound bites, the trite and worn out phrases in the media. We, the US, did not give birth to ISIS. Repeating this mantra of the media, pasting the terrorism label on the West...etc.... undermines the thesis, one that I agree with, but one that requires that the facts are set out and not muddled by the passions.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 8:14 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>>> These are not arguments, they are insults; sound bite, rant, hand wringing, naive.  You are not getting published, and are not a respected political voice and there are many highly qualified observers who say fundamentally what I am saying. This POV is not a product of naivety but of sane and equable moral evaluation. You talk as though The US army and commerce brings peace and stability wherever it goes, but there is a shitload of evidence against that premise. It is the mainstream press that is suspect and produces reams of meaningless propaganda and is most often caught lying, along with the military.
>>> > On Nov 27, 2015, at 3:41 PM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Did we pretty much midwife an Islamic state? No. We did not. That is sound bite.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 1:17 PM, David Kilroy <thesaintgodard at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > Considering we pretty much midwived the existence of the Islamic State I don't think we merit much understanding.
>>> >
>>> > Not for a second saying the terrorists are right, but I understand precisely why we're perceived as the great satan.  Our government has done everything in its power to destabilize the middle east, murder & impoverish hundreds of thousands of people and it's an absolute fucking disgrace.
>>> >
>>> > http://thedollop.libsyn.com/122-the-iraq-war
>>> >
>>> > Professional comedians can't even manage to make jokes about it.  It's just an abysmal state of affairs.  Our government has made its citizenry complicit in wars where we refuse to keep a body count or allow ourselves to be held accountable to international law.  We've held POWs for over a decade without trial.  How has that made us secure?  MY GOVERNMENT HAS MADE ME COMPLICIT IN WAR CRIMES.  The people in Guantanamo are hostages, political pawns who have been abused physically & mentally, and no amount of therapy will heal that.  Call me naive all you want: this shit matters.  We look like fucking barbarians.
>>> >
>>> > The U.S. hasn't made things any more secure.  It's made American citizens targets wherever we go: U.S. policies have created a climate of hatred & danger for citizens traveling abroad.  It's infuriating.  We're losers for believing we're in any way righteous.
>>> >
>>>
>>> -
>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>
>
> -
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