(np) What the Slaughter of Christians in Lahore Says About the Global Jihad

Fri Apr 1 14:19:28 CDT 2016

Big sigh.....

On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 3:13 PM, rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com> wrote:

> it's all rather depressing but something tells me that the sunni-shia
> divide needs to burn itself out like the religious wars in europe between
> catholics and protestants did over time.
> there's even a schism even within radical sunni community (Isis vs. the
> Saudi royal family) that needs resolving as well. whether that after what
> one would think will be costly to the Saudis in defeating Isis will change
> the mindset of the Wahhabi movement loyal to the Saudi regime in its
> diverse support for fomenting radicalism globally is another question.
> The US is wasting billions in this fight. it really hasnt accomplished
> much and in many cases made things much worse. there seems to be an
> unwillingness to question how it spends its trillions on defense and
> counter-terror globally. If the Saudis need to change, so does America.
> Next to health care, it'll bankrupt the country. I'm not optimistic, not
> with the dumbells we have running the show, and a psychopath, a vile
> preacher's lame-ass son, and corporate stooge in Clinton waiting in the
> wings, well, yeah depressing.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 12:22 PM, Keith Davis <kbob42 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Kai, what do you suggest, if anything, about dealing with the present
>> situation?
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 10:17 AM, Keith Davis <kbob42 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Damn...
>>>
>>> Www.innergroovemusic.com
>>>
>>> > On Apr 1, 2016, at 4:11 AM, Kai Frederik Lorentzen <
>>> lorentzen at hotmail.de> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Those thanatoid Sharia fascists don't give a damn whether you are a
>>> "peaceful believer" or not. And while you want "to evolve" - I, no irony,
>>> really like that! -, the world caliphate they're going for will be one big
>>> regression: The middle Ages with smartphones and AKs. Not a good place for
>>> independent women, dopers or homosexuals. The problem by now is worldwide,
>>> in no way restricted to the gulf region. And it's not a matter of
>>> economics. I like to talk with folks, all kind of folks, about books too,
>>> but what are you doing when the only book to talk about is the Koran?
>>> >
>>> > The (contemporary) military interventions of the West do not kill
>>> Muslims because of their religion.
>>> >
>>> > Of course, sometimes my new harshness on Islam makes me feel like an
>>> asshole. For more than 25 years  I had  another view on the issue. But I
>>> can't help it, the situation is serious now.
>>> >
>>> > " ' ... Think about it----all it takes is, like, a idle thumb on a
>>> space bar to turn 'Islam' into 'I slam.''
>>> > 'Thought-provoking, Shawn.'" (Bleeding Edge, p. 31)
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> On 01.04.2016 05:51, Joseph Tracy wrote:
>>> >> I don’t think the slaughter of Muslims has stopped for holidays since
>>> the US fostered Iraq’s invasion of Iran. The numbers of dead are staggering
>>> and far out of proportion to what western nations have suffered. The US has
>>> a religion too,  a religion of imperial greed backed up by the most
>>> powerful airforce in history. This widespread conflict in the gulf region
>>> is not a religious war. Religion is just one of the organizing forces and
>>> it inspires violence for more than muslims. I have a nephew graduating from
>>> the Airforce Acadamey this year. He is a fundamentalist Christian. He has
>>> been fantasizing with graphic computer games about killing muslims since he
>>> was in High School, yet outwardly he is one of the friendliest, most
>>> respectful and easygoing people I know. 2 years ago I taught a stained
>>> glass class to some adults, one with a residence and citizenship in Israel
>>> and 2 with close connections to israel. All three openly advocated the
>>> killing of all Palestinian
>>> >> s starting in Gaza. When I peacefully expressed my own thoughts they
>>> smiled and regarded me as naive. I suppose it is sophisticated to say thes
>>> things among their friends. One can see the religious roots there too and
>>> the violent consequences of these ideas.
>>> >>
>>> >>  When you say we, I don’t know who you are talking about. My only we
>>> is those who I join in solidarity: peace activists, environmentalists,
>>> Quakers, Buddhists, Sufis,native indigenous peoples, people who like to
>>> talk about books, artists. I am not at war with anyone, I declared my
>>> independence from foreign wars during Vietnam and while I was pulled toward
>>> the rhetoric of war in the late 80s, I ended up after some years of
>>> intellectual struggle resisting and ultimately rejecting it. I understand
>>> defending one’s town, city, neghborhood or nation but regard all
>>> non-defensive violence as poison mostly conducted by hired killers which is
>>> how I regard the US military. It is time to evolve.
>>> >>   There are millions of peaceful believers in  every populous
>>> religion, and every culture also produces a small percentage of people
>>> poisoned with hate and violence. To conflate them is usually a result of
>>> some form of xenophobia or privilege based on superior force. The wars in
>>> Rwanda were not religious, and not even truly tribal.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> On Mar 31, 2016, at 5:08 AM, Kai Frederik Lorentzen<
>>> lorentzen at hotmail.de>  wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> But has "the non Islamic West", these years and decades, ever killed
>>> Muslims - including Muslim children - on a high Muslim holiday, like Sugar
>>> Feast or Feast of Sacrifice, just because they were Muslims and not
>>> Christians?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I don't think so.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Perhaps we all are, if we want it or not, by now involved in a new
>>> world-war inspired by religion.  It's a very inconvenient perspective, but
>>> I cannot rule it out.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> On 31.03.2016 09:44, Joseph Tracy wrote:
>>> >>>> To me this is completely one-sided. The non Islamic West has
>>> initiated as much violence as the Islamists. Killing, theft and torture,
>>> regime change,drones, suicide bombers -It is a cycle not in any way limited
>>> to Islamists.  Fascism takes many forms and is working powerfully within
>>> the many factions at play in these wars.
>>> >>>>> On Mar 29, 2016, at 6:27 AM, Kai Frederik Lorentzen<
>>> lorentzen at hotmail.de>  wrote:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Maajid Nawaz:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>> ... A jihadist guerrilla war is being waged against world order,
>>> and the international community is woefully unprepared to address the
>>> problem.
>>> >>>>> Many still deny this insurgency exists, and it is true that these
>>> countries have locally specific factors that contribute to their respective
>>> insurgent conditions. Yes, the groups behind these attacks are not under
>>> one central leadership, rather they are either affiliates or offshoots of
>>> competing jihadist groups.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> But they all share one cause.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> They are all—including ISIS—derived from, or affiliated to just
>>> two jihadist groupings: al Qaeda and the Taliban. In turn, jihadists all
>>> drink from the same doctrinal well of widespread, rigid Wahhabism. And they
>>> share the ideological aims of popular non-terrorist Islamists. They are all
>>> unified behind a theocratic desire to enforce a version of Sharia as law
>>> over society. Considering that non-violent Wahhabi and Islamist Muslims
>>> exist in their millions globally, this drastically increases the potential
>>> recruitment pool for jihadists. The insurgency could not succeed were this
>>> not so. There is no use in denying it.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> For many years, liberals—and I speak as one—have refused to
>>> acknowledge the ideology of Islamism. All talk of “ideas” was seen to be
>>> nothing but a “neocon” line taken directly from the worst excesses of the
>>> George W. Bush years.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Ironically, due to this very fear of political incorrectness we
>>> wound up repeating many of the mistakes of the neocon era. While we feared
>>> to engage in a debate on values with Muslim communities, we tried to
>>> restrict the problem to the realm of mere criminality, as something to be
>>> dealt with by law enforcement or, failing a solution there, by the
>>> military—and ultimately by war, even if that word went unspoken. Under this
>>> doctrine, President Barack Obama developed a secret kill-list, preferring
>>> simply to assassinate his enemies, even if they were American citizens, and
>>> he has dispatching more drone strikes abroad than Bush ever did.
>>> >>>>> Anything to avoid discussing ideas.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> And so, as this global jihadist insurgency became impossible to
>>> ignore, we liberals reluctantly, euphemistically began naming the problem
>>> “violent extremism.” We used nauseating, limp State Department-coined
>>> phrases such as “al-Qaeda-inspired extremism” to refer to what was clearly
>>> an ideology. But as the assassination of Osama Bin Laden in his Pakistani
>>> hideout proved, we cannot arrest nor shoot our way out of this problem.
>>> “Defeating” al Qaeda was only ever going to give rise to a group like ISIS,
>>> because it was not al Qaeda that had “inspired extremism”; it was extremism
>>> that had inspired al Qaeda.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Our failure to recognize this as a civilizational struggle—one
>>> centered around values—has allowed the fundamentalist problem of Wahhabism,
>>> and the political problem of Islamism, to fester and metastasize. This
>>> struggle is an ideological one before it is a military or legal one. Vague
>>> platitudes that this has nothing to do with Islam—my own religion—are as
>>> unhelpful as saying that this is the essence of Islam. Extremism certainly
>>> has something to do with Islam. Not nothing, not everything, but something.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> The Lahore bombing underscores the very religious character of the
>>> jihadists’ fanaticism. This was not about alienation in a European ghetto,
>>> or revenge for American and European airstrikes in the Middle East— the
>>> secular-sounding explanations offered as the motivations of people like
>>> those who carried out the Paris and Brussels attacks. Lahore was about
>>> pure, vicious religious intolerance, killing Christians—including Christian
>>> children—on Easter Sunday because they were Christians and not the kind of
>>> Muslims the murderers claim to be ... <
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/03/28/what-the-slaughter-of-christians-in-lahore-says-about-the-global-jihad.html?via=twitter_page
>>> >>>> -
>>> >>>> Pynchon-l /http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=nchon-l
>>> >>> -
>>> >>> Pynchon-l /http://www.waste.org/mail/?list
>>> >> -
>>> >> Pynchon-l /http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=nchon-l
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > -
>>> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> www.innergroovemusic.com
>>
>>
>

-- 
www.innergroovemusic.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://waste.org/pipermail/pynchon-l/attachments/20160401/71d0ffb0/attachment.html>