BtZ42 the Oven chapter

[David Morris]

BTW, decky-dance is what Pynchon calls it, which is why I used that
inadequate word.  I think examining his words before replacing them with
ours is a good place to hope to start, if we want to know what he was
hoping to convey.

David Morris

On Wednesday, June 22, 2016, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:

> Without reaction to other's words, we are just making statements, not
> conversing.  Unless I bounce back what I understand you to say, with my
> reactions, your words don't grow into a bigger context of conversation, and
> are thus still born.  Nothing I can say, even if insults, controls your
> expression.  So lighten up.  I'm surprised that this needs being said.
>
> David Morris
>
> On Wednesday, June 22, 2016, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','brook7 at sover.net');>> wrote:
>
>> >  Calling such characterizations "signifiers" doesn't excuse their
>> insults to those being portrayed thus.
>> I never intended to excuse anything, and I didn’t excuse anything. That
>> is in your head.  And decadence is just another inadequate word, not
>> particularly better or worse than my similarly inadequate phrase. It is
>> actually one I considered, but rejected as not what I wanted to say.
>>
>> I would appreciate if you would just say what you have to say and let me
>> say what I have to say and refrain from putting words in my mouth.
>>
>>
>> > On Jun 22, 2016, at 9:12 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > GR and V both play with the concept of decadence, which is I guess what
>> you mean by "degradation of spirit."  He is portraying what he saw as
>> societal root flaws in these examples of decadence.  In V. his morality is
>> aghast at Esther's abortion.  Such nearly fundamentalist judgements are
>> surprising for one so obviously nimble of mind.  Calling such
>> characterizations "signifiers" doesn't excuse their insults to those being
>> portrayed thus.  If he had portrayed blacks in a bad light, as dumb or
>> callous except for their appetites, would he be excused?  His only excuse
>> is immaturity of perspective for a probable myriad of reasons.  He is
>> forgiven because of all the beautiful things that overshadow his errors.
>> >
>> > He was amazing, but not perfect.
>> >
>> > David Morris
>> >
>> > On Wednesday, June 22, 2016, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>> > In GR homosexuality serves as a signifier of degradation of spirit. The
>> focus is on extremes of submission and dominance as though that were
>> defining attributes of same gender male love. This  oversimplification has
>> obviously changed by the tme he writes ATD. In V one could easily see
>> implications of mysogyny.  It seems by the later writing gays and women can
>> be heroic or they can be criminal jerks.  Gender or Sexual preference is no
>> longer the same kind of indicator.
>> >
>> > > On Jun 21, 2016, at 8:00 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Yes, his take on gays back then was badly flawed. So what? He ain't
>> perfect, then nor now. Who is?
>> > >
>> > > David Morris
>> > >
>> > > On Tuesday, June 21, 2016, Smoke Teff <smoketeff at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > Copying and pasting Mark's question in case anybody didn't make it to
>> the bottom of his message. I don't necessarily think the answer to the
>> enveloping question is yes, but I think it's important to think with
>> clarity, caution, courage about what the answer might be.
>> > >
>> > > MK: What's with TRP and gays? Does this 'attitude'--is it part of his
>> vision and how?---date (and weaken)
>> > > GR?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > On Jun 21, 2016, at 6:07 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > What's with TRP and gays? Does this 'attitude'--is it part of his
>> vision and how?---date (and weaken)
>> > > > GR?
>> > > -
>> > > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>> >
>> > -
>> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>
>> -
>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://waste.org/pipermail/pynchon-l/attachments/20160622/269eaf0f/attachment.html>