BtZ42 the Oven chapter

[Joseph Tracy]

Lighten up yourself. You were putting words in my mouth, saying I said things I just didn’t say. I gave no indication of excusing anything.   I have no problem with disagreement but see no reason to tolerate pointed misinterpretations as anyone on the list for as long as you ought to have figured out by now.  As a matter of fact “ I’m surprised this needs being said”.
> On Jun 22, 2016, at 11:11 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Without reaction to other's words, we are just making statements, not conversing.  Unless I bounce back what I understand you to say, with my reactions, your words don't grow into a bigger context of conversation, and are thus still born.  Nothing I can say, even if insults, controls your expression.  So lighten up.  I'm surprised that this needs being said.
> 
> David Morris
> 
> On Wednesday, June 22, 2016, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
> >  Calling such characterizations "signifiers" doesn't excuse their insults to those being portrayed thus.
> I never intended to excuse anything, and I didn’t excuse anything. That is in your head.  And decadence is just another inadequate word, not particularly better or worse than my similarly inadequate phrase. It is actually one I considered, but rejected as not what I wanted to say.
> 
> I would appreciate if you would just say what you have to say and let me say what I have to say and refrain from putting words in my mouth.
> 
> 
> > On Jun 22, 2016, at 9:12 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > GR and V both play with the concept of decadence, which is I guess what you mean by "degradation of spirit."  He is portraying what he saw as societal root flaws in these examples of decadence.  In V. his morality is aghast at Esther's abortion.  Such nearly fundamentalist judgements are surprising for one so obviously nimble of mind.  Calling such characterizations "signifiers" doesn't excuse their insults to those being portrayed thus.  If he had portrayed blacks in a bad light, as dumb or callous except for their appetites, would he be excused?  His only excuse is immaturity of perspective for a probable myriad of reasons.  He is forgiven because of all the beautiful things that overshadow his errors.
> >
> > He was amazing, but not perfect.
> >
> > David Morris
> >
> > On Wednesday, June 22, 2016, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
> > In GR homosexuality serves as a signifier of degradation of spirit. The focus is on extremes of submission and dominance as though that were defining attributes of same gender male love. This  oversimplification has obviously changed by the tme he writes ATD. In V one could easily see  implications of mysogyny.  It seems by the later writing gays and women can be heroic or they can be criminal jerks.  Gender or Sexual preference is no longer the same kind of indicator.
> >
> > > On Jun 21, 2016, at 8:00 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes, his take on gays back then was badly flawed. So what? He ain't perfect, then nor now. Who is?
> > >
> > > David Morris
> > >
> > > On Tuesday, June 21, 2016, Smoke Teff <smoketeff at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Copying and pasting Mark's question in case anybody didn't make it to the bottom of his message. I don't necessarily think the answer to the enveloping question is yes, but I think it's important to think with clarity, caution, courage about what the answer might be.
> > >
> > > MK: What's with TRP and gays? Does this 'attitude'--is it part of his vision and how?---date (and weaken)
> > > GR?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > On Jun 21, 2016, at 6:07 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > What's with TRP and gays? Does this 'attitude'--is it part of his vision and how?---date (and weaken)
> > > > GR?
> > > -
> > > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> >
> > -
> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> 
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