BtZ42Read

[Mark Kohut]

The American philosopher, pragmaticist [his word] Charles S. Pierce thought
chance
an inherent value in the universe--you can look it up---and there is the
famous story
of William James in a youthful crisis over whether our wills are free
deciding

"My first act of free will will be believing in it". [prob paraphrase]

On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 12:00 PM, Ian Livingston <igrlivingston at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Un-meshing chance and will in human metaphor will ever be a trial. While
> Kierkegaard won't apply directly to a rocket, his notions of choice amidst
> the vagaries of chance certainly apply to individuals and, perhaps,
> societies in their rise and fall--and all the creative wreckage they (we)
> deliver into the world.
>
> On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 6:04 AM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> ...which is why Roger will come along to show you what rigorously
>> predictable outcomes emerge from chance.
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 8:32 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> "free" being just another name for chance by me.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 8:28 AM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I wouldn't identify the vertex of the parabola with a zero point -- or
>>>> at any rate, have never heard the latter term used in either ballistics or
>>>> analytic geometry. The section title "BtZ" will be tied richly and
>>>> explicitly to Pavlovian conditioning, while nearly all the rocket
>>>> trajectory details (and metaphorical development of same) are later in the
>>>> book. Sure, everything connects to everything, but...
>>>>
>>>> I was using "control" for human agency, direct or embedded in a system:
>>>> the period when the rocket engine is firing and the guidance accelerometer,
>>>> gyros, and vanes are active, programmed (albeit not digitally) to provide
>>>> thrust X for Y seconds, gradually tipping the trajectory from vertical
>>>> toward compass bearing Z. From brennschluss on, the rocket follows the same
>>>> path that a dumb old artillery shell or a rock would follow: what people on
>>>> the ground intended, did, or do has no further effect. Yes, it's
>>>> "controlled by" physical law from beginning to end, but I still find the
>>>> distinction between that and human control useful.
>>>>
>>>> "Free"? That doesn't enter into it at all, Jackson. :-)
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 7:27 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Gotta question some of this a little from my pov: Seems to me that
>>>>> once launched the rocket is all Control, it carries out its
>>>>> trajectory--unless interfered with--- by necessity, even beyond the zero
>>>>> point and gravity is that deterministic metaphor for not being "free" at
>>>>> all.
>>>>> I think chance and necessity per Monte is a real theme too (but
>>>>> perhaps even more so in ATD) but I'm having trouble seeing it starting here
>>>>> per Monte. (But, as with Pirates' dream, Monte might be right on here too).
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 1:09 PM, <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Pynchon's writing sends each reader off on their own tangents
>>>>>> (sometimes multiple ones, in a single sentence). But I prefer to read a
>>>>>> little closer to the text. "The white line, abruptly, has stopped its
>>>>>> climb. That would be fuel cutoff, end of burning, what's their word …
>>>>>> Brennschluss. We don't have one. Or else its classified." The zero point is
>>>>>> the top of the parabola, the rocket-arc that Pirate sees from his rooftop.
>>>>>> At the top of the parabola (symmetrical in theory, at any rate), the slope
>>>>>> is zero.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So there are two "beyond the zero" points. "Their" side - the Nazi
>>>>>> rocket-launchers and "our" side (too classified to even name the zero
>>>>>> point?). An interesting thing happens at the zero point. The first half
>>>>>> (rising) is engineered, man-made; but in the descent, gravity (Nature)
>>>>>> takes over. Von Braun: "Nature does not know extinction; all it knows is
>>>>>> transformation." Or, as per the Tom Lehrer song: "'Once the rocket goes up,
>>>>>> who cares where it comes down? That's not my department,' says Wernher von
>>>>>> Braun.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Laura
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Keith Davis
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent: Mar 15, 2016 12:21 PM
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To: Joseph Tracy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cc: P-list List
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: BtZ42Read
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This could link to Slothrop's final scene, or state, as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 12:20 PM, Keith Davis <kbob42 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Beyond the Zero...beyond nothing, to everything?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 12:19 PM, Keith Davis <kbob42 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> I was thinking of it as beyond this life, as well. The behaviorism
>>>>>> angle is also very insightful. Why not both, and possibly more?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 11:55 AM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> I think so. Behaviorism is such a central theme. The screaming also
>>>>>> has an echo later in the screaming children in the secret behaviorist
>>>>>> experiments, which reinforces this thinking.  There is also a sense in
>>>>>> which Beyond the Zero refers to crossing the boundary between life and
>>>>>> death. Von Braun describes ’the continuity of “our spiritual
>>>>>> existence”after death'. Pynchon seems to me to be asking what kind of
>>>>>> spiritual existence comes out of Von Braun’s choices. Is there a sense in
>>>>>> which this kind of thinking leads to a lust for self annihilation as a mad
>>>>>> alchemical experiment. Bliss Zero.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is going to be very hard not to leap around here in the text.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > On Mar 15, 2016, at 5:46 AM, Kai Frederik Lorentzen <
>>>>>> lorentzen at hotmail.de> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > On 15.03.2016 09:39, Ian Livingston wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >> Then there is this pe-orgasmic pause:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >> “There is no way out. Lie and wait, lie still and be quiet.
>>>>>> Screaming holds across the sky. When it comes, will it come in darkness, or
>>>>>> will it bring its own light? Will the light come before ar after?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >> But it is already light," GR 5.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >> Are we beyond the zero at this point? What, exactly, is the zero?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > Could it be that the zero refers to behaviorism? Pavlovian thought
>>>>>> is via Pointsman very present in this first part of the novel. In this
>>>>>> context, - please correct me if I'm wrong! - the one (1) refers to the
>>>>>> successful conditioning, manifest in a concrete behavior. The zero (0)
>>>>>> refers to the state where the conditioning is extinguished and the behavior
>>>>>> is not shown by the test subject anymore.  The formulation "beyond the
>>>>>> zero" then, perhaps, indicates a new phase in human history where the
>>>>>> thanatoid forces of society start, metaphorically speaking, to go beneath
>>>>>> our skin. Where science becomes "big science" (and data "big data"), and
>>>>>> even political mass murder, so very common to history, enters a
>>>>>> qualitatively new level with the Holocaust, as well as with Hiroshima.
>>>>>> Sentences like "It is too late", or "It has happened before, but there is
>>>>>> nothing to compare it to now", would fit such a reading. What do you think?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >> “Astrologically the beginning of the next aeon, according to the
>>>>>> starting-point you select, falls between A.D. 2000 and  2200. Starting from
>>>>>> the star “0“ and assuming a Platonic month of 2,145 years, one would arrive
>>>>>> at A.D. 2154 for the beginning of the Aquarian Age, and at A.D. 1997 if you
>>>>>> start from star “a 113.“ The latter date agrees with the longitude of the
>>>>>> stars in Ptolemy’s Almagest“ CGJ, Aion, 1959, 94n.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> www.innergroovemusic.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> www.innergroovemusic.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> www.innergroovemusic.com
>>>>>> -
>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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