BtZ42Read

Thu Mar 17 07:09:28 CDT 2016

...in the spaces between zero and one, statistically speaking, as he will
say.
Beyond that zero again, so to speak.

On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 9:04 AM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com> wrote:

> ...which is why Roger will come along to show you what rigorously
> predictable outcomes emerge from chance.
>
> On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 8:32 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> "free" being just another name for chance by me.
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 8:28 AM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I wouldn't identify the vertex of the parabola with a zero point -- or
>>> at any rate, have never heard the latter term used in either ballistics or
>>> analytic geometry. The section title "BtZ" will be tied richly and
>>> explicitly to Pavlovian conditioning, while nearly all the rocket
>>> trajectory details (and metaphorical development of same) are later in the
>>> book. Sure, everything connects to everything, but...
>>>
>>> I was using "control" for human agency, direct or embedded in a system:
>>> the period when the rocket engine is firing and the guidance accelerometer,
>>> gyros, and vanes are active, programmed (albeit not digitally) to provide
>>> thrust X for Y seconds, gradually tipping the trajectory from vertical
>>> toward compass bearing Z. From brennschluss on, the rocket follows the same
>>> path that a dumb old artillery shell or a rock would follow: what people on
>>> the ground intended, did, or do has no further effect. Yes, it's
>>> "controlled by" physical law from beginning to end, but I still find the
>>> distinction between that and human control useful.
>>>
>>> "Free"? That doesn't enter into it at all, Jackson. :-)
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 7:27 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Gotta question some of this a little from my pov: Seems to me that once
>>>> launched the rocket is all Control, it carries out its trajectory--unless
>>>> interfered with--- by necessity, even beyond the zero point and gravity is
>>>> that deterministic metaphor for not being "free" at all.
>>>> I think chance and necessity per Monte is a real theme too (but perhaps
>>>> even more so in ATD) but I'm having trouble seeing it starting here per
>>>> Monte. (But, as with Pirates' dream, Monte might be right on here too).
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 1:09 PM, <kelber at mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Pynchon's writing sends each reader off on their own tangents
>>>>> (sometimes multiple ones, in a single sentence). But I prefer to read a
>>>>> little closer to the text. "The white line, abruptly, has stopped its
>>>>> climb. That would be fuel cutoff, end of burning, what's their word …
>>>>> Brennschluss. We don't have one. Or else its classified." The zero point is
>>>>> the top of the parabola, the rocket-arc that Pirate sees from his rooftop.
>>>>> At the top of the parabola (symmetrical in theory, at any rate), the slope
>>>>> is zero.
>>>>>
>>>>> So there are two "beyond the zero" points. "Their" side - the Nazi
>>>>> rocket-launchers and "our" side (too classified to even name the zero
>>>>> point?). An interesting thing happens at the zero point. The first half
>>>>> (rising) is engineered, man-made; but in the descent, gravity (Nature)
>>>>> takes over. Von Braun: "Nature does not know extinction; all it knows is
>>>>> transformation." Or, as per the Tom Lehrer song: "'Once the rocket goes up,
>>>>> who cares where it comes down? That's not my department,' says Wernher von
>>>>> Braun.
>>>>>
>>>>> Laura
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Keith Davis
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent: Mar 15, 2016 12:21 PM
>>>>>
>>>>> To: Joseph Tracy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Cc: P-list List
>>>>>
>>>>> Subject: Re: BtZ42Read
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This could link to Slothrop's final scene, or state, as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 12:20 PM, Keith Davis <kbob42 at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Beyond the Zero...beyond nothing, to everything?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 12:19 PM, Keith Davis <kbob42 at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> I was thinking of it as beyond this life, as well. The behaviorism
>>>>> angle is also very insightful. Why not both, and possibly more?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 11:55 AM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> I think so. Behaviorism is such a central theme. The screaming also
>>>>> has an echo later in the screaming children in the secret behaviorist
>>>>> experiments, which reinforces this thinking.  There is also a sense in
>>>>> which Beyond the Zero refers to crossing the boundary between life and
>>>>> death. Von Braun describes ’the continuity of “our spiritual
>>>>> existence”after death'. Pynchon seems to me to be asking what kind of
>>>>> spiritual existence comes out of Von Braun’s choices. Is there a sense in
>>>>> which this kind of thinking leads to a lust for self annihilation as a mad
>>>>> alchemical experiment. Bliss Zero.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It is going to be very hard not to leap around here in the text.
>>>>>
>>>>> > On Mar 15, 2016, at 5:46 AM, Kai Frederik Lorentzen <
>>>>> lorentzen at hotmail.de> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> > On 15.03.2016 09:39, Ian Livingston wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >> Then there is this pe-orgasmic pause:
>>>>>
>>>>> >>
>>>>>
>>>>> >> “There is no way out. Lie and wait, lie still and be quiet.
>>>>> Screaming holds across the sky. When it comes, will it come in darkness, or
>>>>> will it bring its own light? Will the light come before ar after?
>>>>>
>>>>> >>
>>>>>
>>>>> >> But it is already light," GR 5.
>>>>>
>>>>> >>
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >>
>>>>>
>>>>> >> Are we beyond the zero at this point? What, exactly, is the zero?
>>>>>
>>>>> >>
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> > Could it be that the zero refers to behaviorism? Pavlovian thought
>>>>> is via Pointsman very present in this first part of the novel. In this
>>>>> context, - please correct me if I'm wrong! - the one (1) refers to the
>>>>> successful conditioning, manifest in a concrete behavior. The zero (0)
>>>>> refers to the state where the conditioning is extinguished and the behavior
>>>>> is not shown by the test subject anymore.  The formulation "beyond the
>>>>> zero" then, perhaps, indicates a new phase in human history where the
>>>>> thanatoid forces of society start, metaphorically speaking, to go beneath
>>>>> our skin. Where science becomes "big science" (and data "big data"), and
>>>>> even political mass murder, so very common to history, enters a
>>>>> qualitatively new level with the Holocaust, as well as with Hiroshima.
>>>>> Sentences like "It is too late", or "It has happened before, but there is
>>>>> nothing to compare it to now", would fit such a reading. What do you think?
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >>
>>>>>
>>>>> >> “Astrologically the beginning of the next aeon, according to the
>>>>> starting-point you select, falls between A.D. 2000 and  2200. Starting from
>>>>> the star “0“ and assuming a Platonic month of 2,145 years, one would arrive
>>>>> at A.D. 2154 for the beginning of the Aquarian Age, and at A.D. 1997 if you
>>>>> start from star “a 113.“ The latter date agrees with the longitude of the
>>>>> stars in Ptolemy’s Almagest“ CGJ, Aion, 1959, 94n.
>>>>>
>>>>> >>
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -
>>>>>
>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> www.innergroovemusic.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> www.innergroovemusic.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> www.innergroovemusic.com
>>>>> -
>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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