NP Brasil

[ish mailian]

 We disagree on Lula and what he accomplished.  I see his work as very
successful as I stated.

On Sun, Mar 20, 2016 at 7:35 PM, rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com> wrote:
> your words:
>
> However, the fact that the protests are largely organized and funded
> by the elite, including the powerful elite outside the country who are
> desperate to get their greedy fingers on the resources of the nation
> and to put an end to one of the most successful efforts to support the
> poor, the landless, and the rights of the indigenous peoples calls for
> a closer examination of the protest objectives and its composition.
> ----
> successful? hardly.
>
> ----
> yr words:
> That the protesters embrace the prosecution of elites and of corrupt
> politicians is a common ground, but that they reject Lula/Dilma work
> to support the poorest members of the society must be analyzed and
> debated.
> ----
> how hard is that to understand? the poor are fed up with them all.
> corruption under dilma has been just as bad as any free-market government.

I understand it, Rich,  but my point is that the street protests are
not about the poor being fed up. The yellow duck is not the symbol of
the poor.

>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 20, 2016 at 6:53 PM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I still don't know what your opinion on Lula and Chavez has to do with
>> what I have posted. I've not even mentioned Chavez. On Lula we disagree.
>> Other than that I have no idea what you are talking about.
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, March 20, 2016, rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> the socialist experiments are also dismal failures in south
>>> america--lula, chavez, that's what
>>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 20, 2016 at 5:19 PM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  What?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Mar 20, 2016 at 12:46 PM, rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> > from what i've read the corruption re; Petrobas has not stopped under
>>>> > Lula
>>>> > and Dilma.
>>>> >
>>>> > you sure dont give poor people credit for thinking for themselves do
>>>> > you?
>>>> > being led by their noses by faceless elites. I dont buy it.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Sat, Mar 19, 2016 at 8:01 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com>
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> An excellent point.
>>>> >> However, the fact that the protests are largely organized and funded
>>>> >> by the elite, including the powerful elite outside the country who
>>>> >> are
>>>> >> desperate to get their greedy fingers on the resources of the nation
>>>> >> and to put an end to one of the most successful efforts to support
>>>> >> the
>>>> >> poor, the landless, and the rights of the indigenous peoples calls
>>>> >> for
>>>> >> a closer examination of the protest objectives and its composition.
>>>> >> That photograph of the wealthy white couple and the nanny has become
>>>> >> a
>>>> >> symbol of the need for such scrutiny. The PT, as the article points
>>>> >> out, has a very loyal electorate, mostly poor and powerless and
>>>> >> darker
>>>> >> in complexion. The poor have hammered by the press, the government
>>>> >> programs that helped to lift 50 million from abject poverty have been
>>>> >> demonized by the rich, the affluent and their constituency, by the
>>>> >> churches, by the business classes and even by the Vice president, who
>>>> >> is, by strange workings of politics, not of the PT party. That the
>>>> >> protesters embrace the prosecution of elites and of corrupt
>>>> >> politicians is a common ground, but that they reject Lula/Dilma work
>>>> >> to support the poorest members of the society must be analyzed and
>>>> >> debated.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Sat, Mar 19, 2016 at 5:40 AM, Kai Frederik Lorentzen
>>>> >> <lorentzen at hotmail.de> wrote:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >> None of this is a defense of PT. Both because of genuine
>>>> >> >> widespread
>>>> >> >> corruption in that party and national economic woes, Dilma and PT
>>>> >> >> are
>>>> >> >> intensely unpopular among all classes and groups, even including
>>>> >> >> the
>>>> >> >> party’s
>>>> >> >> working-class base. But the street protests — as undeniably large
>>>> >> >> and
>>>> >> >> energized as they have been — are driven by those who are
>>>> >> >> traditionally
>>>> >> >> hostile to PT. The number of people participating in these
>>>> >> >> protests —
>>>> >> >> while
>>>> >> >> in the millions — is dwarfed by the number (54 million) who voted
>>>> >> >> to
>>>> >> >> re-elect Dilma less than two years ago. In a democracy,
>>>> >> >> governments are
>>>> >> >> chosen by voting, not by displays of street opposition —
>>>> >> >> particularly
>>>> >> >> where,
>>>> >> >> as in Brazil, the protests are drawn from a relatively narrow
>>>> >> >> societal
>>>> >> >> segment. <
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > When millions are marching the streets it's not nothing, yet a
>>>> >> > strong
>>>> >> > manifestation of democracy. And while it's true that in
>>>> >> > parliamentarism
>>>> >> > "governments are chosen by voting", the democratic possibilities of
>>>> >> > the
>>>> >> > people, as the subject of the constituent power, can never be
>>>> >> > reduced to
>>>> >> > taking part in elections and plebiscites. As Carl Schmitt says: The
>>>> >> > people
>>>> >> > are an immediately present and real entity.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > "Nach der demokratischen Lehre von der verfassungsgebenden Gewalt
>>>> >> > des
>>>> >> > Volkes
>>>> >> > steht das Volk als Träger der verfassungsgebenen Gewalt außer und
>>>> >> > über
>>>> >> > jeder
>>>> >> > verfassungsgesetzlichen Normierung. Wenn ihm verfassungsgesetzlich
>>>> >> > gewisse
>>>> >> > Zuständigkeiten (Wahlen und Abstimmungen) übertragen werden, ist
>>>> >> > damit
>>>> >> > seine
>>>> >> > politische Handlungsmöglichkeit in einer Demokratie keineswegs
>>>> >> > erschöpft
>>>> >> > und
>>>> >> > erledigt. Neben allen solchen Normierungen bleibt das Volk als
>>>> >> > unmittelbar
>>>> >> > anwesende - nicht durch vorher umschriebene Normierungen, Geltungen
>>>> >> > und
>>>> >> > Fiktionen vermittelte - wirkliche Größe vorhanden."
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Carl Schmitt: Verfassungslehre [1928], § 18,  p. 242, Berlin 1993:
>>>> >> > Duncker &
>>>> >> > Humblot.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > On 18.03.2016 21:16, ish mailian wrote:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > https://theintercept.com/2016/03/18/brazil-is-engulfed-by-ruling-class-corruption-and-a-dangerous-subversion-of-democracy/
>>>> >> > -
>>>> >> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> -
>>>> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> -
>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>
>>>
>
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Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l