NP Brasil

[rich]

your words:

However, the fact that the protests are largely organized and funded
by the elite, including the powerful elite outside the country who are
desperate to get their greedy fingers on the resources of the nation
and to put an end to one of the most successful efforts to support the
poor, the landless, and the rights of the indigenous peoples calls for
a closer examination of the protest objectives and its composition.
----
successful? hardly.

----
yr words:
That the protesters embrace the prosecution of elites and of corrupt
politicians is a common ground, but that they reject Lula/Dilma work
to support the poorest members of the society must be analyzed and
debated.
----
how hard is that to understand? the poor are fed up with them all.
corruption under dilma has been just as bad as any free-market government.





On Sun, Mar 20, 2016 at 6:53 PM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com> wrote:

> I still don't know what your opinion on Lula and Chavez has to do with
> what I have posted. I've not even mentioned Chavez. On Lula we disagree.
> Other than that I have no idea what you are talking about.
>
>
> On Sunday, March 20, 2016, rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> the socialist experiments are also dismal failures in south
>> america--lula, chavez, that's what
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 20, 2016 at 5:19 PM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>  What?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 20, 2016 at 12:46 PM, rich <richard.romeo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > from what i've read the corruption re; Petrobas has not stopped under
>>> Lula
>>> > and Dilma.
>>> >
>>> > you sure dont give poor people credit for thinking for themselves do
>>> you?
>>> > being led by their noses by faceless elites. I dont buy it.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Sat, Mar 19, 2016 at 8:01 AM, ish mailian <ishmailian at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> An excellent point.
>>> >> However, the fact that the protests are largely organized and funded
>>> >> by the elite, including the powerful elite outside the country who are
>>> >> desperate to get their greedy fingers on the resources of the nation
>>> >> and to put an end to one of the most successful efforts to support the
>>> >> poor, the landless, and the rights of the indigenous peoples calls for
>>> >> a closer examination of the protest objectives and its composition.
>>> >> That photograph of the wealthy white couple and the nanny has become a
>>> >> symbol of the need for such scrutiny. The PT, as the article points
>>> >> out, has a very loyal electorate, mostly poor and powerless and darker
>>> >> in complexion. The poor have hammered by the press, the government
>>> >> programs that helped to lift 50 million from abject poverty have been
>>> >> demonized by the rich, the affluent and their constituency, by the
>>> >> churches, by the business classes and even by the Vice president, who
>>> >> is, by strange workings of politics, not of the PT party. That the
>>> >> protesters embrace the prosecution of elites and of corrupt
>>> >> politicians is a common ground, but that they reject Lula/Dilma work
>>> >> to support the poorest members of the society must be analyzed and
>>> >> debated.
>>> >>
>>> >> On Sat, Mar 19, 2016 at 5:40 AM, Kai Frederik Lorentzen
>>> >> <lorentzen at hotmail.de> wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> None of this is a defense of PT. Both because of genuine widespread
>>> >> >> corruption in that party and national economic woes, Dilma and PT
>>> are
>>> >> >> intensely unpopular among all classes and groups, even including
>>> the
>>> >> >> party’s
>>> >> >> working-class base. But the street protests — as undeniably large
>>> and
>>> >> >> energized as they have been — are driven by those who are
>>> traditionally
>>> >> >> hostile to PT. The number of people participating in these
>>> protests —
>>> >> >> while
>>> >> >> in the millions — is dwarfed by the number (54 million) who voted
>>> to
>>> >> >> re-elect Dilma less than two years ago. In a democracy,
>>> governments are
>>> >> >> chosen by voting, not by displays of street opposition —
>>> particularly
>>> >> >> where,
>>> >> >> as in Brazil, the protests are drawn from a relatively narrow
>>> societal
>>> >> >> segment. <
>>> >> >
>>> >> > When millions are marching the streets it's not nothing, yet a
>>> strong
>>> >> > manifestation of democracy. And while it's true that in
>>> parliamentarism
>>> >> > "governments are chosen by voting", the democratic possibilities of
>>> the
>>> >> > people, as the subject of the constituent power, can never be
>>> reduced to
>>> >> > taking part in elections and plebiscites. As Carl Schmitt says: The
>>> >> > people
>>> >> > are an immediately present and real entity.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> >
>>> >> > "Nach der demokratischen Lehre von der verfassungsgebenden Gewalt
>>> des
>>> >> > Volkes
>>> >> > steht das Volk als Träger der verfassungsgebenen Gewalt außer und
>>> über
>>> >> > jeder
>>> >> > verfassungsgesetzlichen Normierung. Wenn ihm verfassungsgesetzlich
>>> >> > gewisse
>>> >> > Zuständigkeiten (Wahlen und Abstimmungen) übertragen werden, ist
>>> damit
>>> >> > seine
>>> >> > politische Handlungsmöglichkeit in einer Demokratie keineswegs
>>> erschöpft
>>> >> > und
>>> >> > erledigt. Neben allen solchen Normierungen bleibt das Volk als
>>> >> > unmittelbar
>>> >> > anwesende - nicht durch vorher umschriebene Normierungen, Geltungen
>>> und
>>> >> > Fiktionen vermittelte - wirkliche Größe vorhanden."
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Carl Schmitt: Verfassungslehre [1928], § 18,  p. 242, Berlin 1993:
>>> >> > Duncker &
>>> >> > Humblot.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > On 18.03.2016 21:16, ish mailian wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> https://theintercept.com/2016/03/18/brazil-is-engulfed-by-ruling-class-corruption-and-a-dangerous-subversion-of-democracy/
>>> >> > -
>>> >> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> -
>>> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>> >
>>> >
>>> -
>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>>
>>
>>
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