"Fun Was Actually Becoming Quite Subversive" (Molly Hite)

Thu Mar 31 06:44:10 CDT 2016

I would agree in general since P makes fun---satirizes to use a 'high' term
for low fun--but right HERE it seems to me he has made a point of the
contrast

so that we can see another level of real life fantasies vs dreams and
fantasies.

But I see your point and glad it is made.

On Thu, Mar 31, 2016 at 7:36 AM, John Bailey <sundayjb at gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't know that there is an opposing of "dreams and fantasies"
> versus reality within the diegesis of GR. The language of the banana
> sequence, the mad macro and micro of molecules and bombs and this dude
> who apparently can be yoked with the fantasies of others... I think
> the reader is supposed to be knotted into this however they're able to
> be. I'd argue the sequence isn't about whaling sanctions or double
> entry accounting but JT's reading isn't too on the nose.
>
> On Thu, Mar 31, 2016 at 10:08 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Joseph T writes:
> > Fun? This is fun of very boyish fantasy materials. Wars start with these
> > fantasies of conquest, potency, control through killing.
> >
> > There is a nice range of ambiguity in possible 'readings' of this scene
> as
> > we have been exploring but there are 'readings' which are projective and
> > absolutely against the ranges within the text.
> >
> > Your second sentence is one of them.....esp the line "control thru
> killing'
> > which comes from WHERE here?   P explores
> > the fantasies that feed and create wars but Pirate and crew HERE are NOT
> > enacting any fantasy---P purposely contrasts Pirate
> > waking up and creating this breakfast for all with the dream and
> fantasies.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 31, 2016 at 3:24 AM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> The gas released from Bananas is  known to make other fruits ripen. The
> >> chemistry of gases is a major force in German technology of the time,
> >> chemicals liquid and gaseous, released from coal, fossil fuels long in
> the
> >> ripening.  The ( C)Osmos nose is big and smells something big, something
> >> ripening. The bananas are growing up from the black soil of recycled
> dead
> >> organic matter.
> >>
> >> Fun? This is fun of very boyish fantasy materials. Wars start with these
> >> fantasies of conquest, potency, control through killing. War releases a
> >> powerful ripening, some to spoilage and rot, some to death and
> recycling,
> >> some to seek a freedom that can’t be taken away in a moment. People make
> >> jokes to cope with situations they can’t control, madness they want to
> >> challenge. Pirate sings goofball guy humor as do the Yanks on the
> street.
> >> Lookout primates, other primates and other bananas are falling from
> above.
> >> We send them up and by God they come right down.
> >>
> >> It is interesting in some weird way that I would call both Cruz and
> Trump
> >> adenoidal The sound of their voice like an echo chamber of egotism . Is
> >> Adenoia anything like Paranoia?
> >>
> >> Can’t keep up with the list as i’d like to right now, too many demands
> on
> >> my time. But enjoying a quick read-through tonight.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > On Mar 28, 2016, at 1:27 PM, kelber at mindspring.com wrote:
> >> >
> >> > I don't see much fun in the description of the Banana breakfast - the
> >> > tone is more of a surreal, desperate attempt to forget what's
> happening
> >> > outside. It's not Pynchon who's saying fuck off, but "the high
> intricacy of
> >> > the weaving of its [the musaceous odor] molecules.
> >> >
> >> > Earlier, on the roof: "Pirate has become famous for his Banana
> >> > Breakfasts … the politics of bacteria, the soils stringing of rings
> and
> >> > chains in nets only God can tell the meshes of, having seen the fruit
> thrive
> >> > to lengths of a foot and a half, yes, amazing but true." These are
> unnatural
> >> > bananas, grown in the shadow of the power station and the gasworks.
> >> >
> >> > Why the references to molecules here? They're the first of many
> >> > references to organic (i.e. unnatural) chemistry. Similarly, I don't
> think
> >> > the Adenoid appears as a random, comic incident. Pynchon isn't going
> to
> >> > write about the holocaust directly, but it hovers in the background.
> At
> >> > least that's how I read it.
> >> >
> >> > LK
> >> >
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: Monte Davis
> >> > Sent: Mar 28, 2016 11:11 AM
> >> > To: Mark Kohut
> >> > Cc: Kai Frederik Lorentzen , pynchon -l , kelber
> >> > Subject: Re: "Fun Was Actually Becoming Quite Subversive" (Molly Hite)
> >> >
> >> > "...a wonderful breakfast... the scent alone is enough to ward of[f]
> >> > death, Pynchon famously says “Fuck Death.” So by indulging in this
> pleasure,
> >> > they are able to escape death, they are able to escape the trajectory
> of
> >> > human nature even if just for a morning.. maybe by not denying these
> >> > pleasures we might be able to get out of the arc of human nature..."
> >> >
> >> > This is more or less how I read the banana breakfast, too: Bakhtin's
> >> > carnival, Brueghel's land of Cockaigne, a celebration of excess
> mocking
> >> > wartime austerity. Yes, it's anomalous in the novel's larger world: an
> >> > island or oasis or refuge, just as the rooftop bananery is an
> artificial
> >> > enclosure against December chill, just as its bananas are luxuries
> available
> >> > only to these officers with connections. Still, "a spell, against
> falling
> >> > objects" seems to me as good as it gets in that world.
> >> >
> >> > Which is why I respectfully disagree with part of Laura's discussion
> >> > last week:
> >> >
> >> > LK> The musaceous odor. Anyone who's ever taken organic chemistry (did
> >> > Pynchon? Anyone know?) has probably synthesized banana ester in the
> lab.
> >> > it's a standard lab exercise, and it's easy to know if you've got it
> right,
> >> > by that musaceous odor ... So even when Pynchon is talking about
> Nature (in
> >> > this case, unnaturally growing bananas), he's reminding us how easy
> it is
> >> > for science to mimic it, or to tear apart and exploit the delicate
> >> > molecules.
> >> >
> >> > There are certainly many places in GR where industrial organic (and
> >> > inorganic) chemical technology has an unmistakably evil, negative,
> >> > anti-human or even "anti-life" context and emotional affect. BUT NOT,
> I
> >> > mildly demur, HERE!
> >> >
> >> > Pynchon gives us "peculiar alkaloids" in the bananery's long-composted
> >> > soil... "the politics of bacteria, the soil’s stringing of rings and
> chains
> >> > in nets only God can tell the meshes of"... "musaceous odor..."
> >> > "taking over not so much through any brute pungency or volume as by
> the
> >> > high intricacy to the weaving of its molecules"... "genetic chains...
> >> > labyrinthine enough to preserve some human face down ten or twenty
> >> > generations"
> >> >
> >> > But does he, HERE, say or imply anything about artificial synthesis
> (as
> >> > contrasted with life's proliferating variety)? Does he say anything
> about a
> >> > "mimicked" smell as distinct from the real smell of real yummy
> 'nanas? Are
> >> > there any "delicate" molecules being "torn apart" and "exploited"
> here --
> >> > other than as life has routinely, "by its nature" done so 24/7 for a
> few
> >> > billion years before IG Farben came along? No.
> >> >
> >> > I'm fine with Laura writing about her associations, which I believe
> were
> >> > brought on by Pynchon's uses (above) of chemical and biological
> vocabulary
> >> > and concepts. In fact, I share them: I've made isoamyl acetate and
> isopentyl
> >> > acetate, too. But that's quite different from "Pynchon is reminding
> us" of
> >> > "science" doing any such thing. In fact, I read those phrases above as
> >> > integral to the unmistakably positive, celebratory "flavor" of the
> banana
> >> > breakfast -- not as a coded warning that exploitive synthetic
> technology is
> >> > lurking beneath. The weaving and unweaving of molecules *is*,
> explicitly, "a
> >> > charm, against falling objects."
> >> >
> >> > Here's a reader I respect and admire, and a stock response that runs
> >> > through fifty years of Pynchonology: "Everyone knows that Pynchon
> mistrusts
> >> > and fears and warns us about science and technology, so wherever their
> >> > vocabulary and concepts crop up, he's on the attack."
> >> >
> >> > This matters to me, as I wrote at length in the exchanges here in June
> >> > of 2013:
> https://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l&month=1306&msg=174066 ,
> >> > etc etc etc...
> >> >
> >> > It leads, again and again, to systematic ignoring and misreading of
> >> > positive, mixed and ambivalent  contexts and associations for P's
> uses of
> >> > scientific and technical vocabulary, concepts, and perspectives. Fair
> >> > warning: I'll be coming back to this throughout the BtZ42, and
> throughout GR
> >> > if we continue.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 5:24 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> > "having evidently the time, in his travels among places of death, to
> >> > devote to girl-chasing"---p.19 Miller edition
> >> >
> >> > I believe Ms. Hite is the one who also said, when encountering the
> claim
> >> > that the Whole Sick Crew were 'hysterical' caricatures
> >> > said: "I knew these people' IRL.
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 4:13 AM, Kai Frederik Lorentzen
> >> > <lorentzen at hotmail.de> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Molly Hite’s critical work with Pynchon published in 2004 has the
> >> > > title “Fun Actually Was Becoming Quite Subversive.” It is an
> interesting
> >> > > title, because it originated somewhere completely different than
> Gravity’s
> >> > > Rainbow, in fact it came from the 1969 trial of the Chicago Seven,
> a group
> >> > > of young men from antiwar and revolutionary groups accused of
> disrupting the
> >> > > 1968 Democratic Convention. This was considered a very important
> trial in
> >> > > the counterculture movement, something Pynchon famously embraced in
> his
> >> > > works. The exact quote originated from the testimony of Abbie
> Hoffman and
> >> > > reads “fun was very important… it was a direct rebuttal of the kind
> of
> >> > > ethics and morals that were being put forth in the country to keep
> people
> >> > > working in a rate race.” Hite uses this to introduce her
> interpretation of
> >> > > Pynchon. She argues that “the idea of fun could subvert an
> oppressive
> >> > > capitalist structure is central to this novel of excess.”
> >> >             Molly Hite uses Herbert Marcuse’s 1955 culture synthesis
> >> > Eros and Civilization: A Philosophical Inquiry into Freud to help
> frame her
> >> > argument, and plainly states that this work must have influenced
> Pynchon.
> >> > Marcuse claims that the period of time, which this book was written
> in, was
> >> > a period of great productivity and excess, and with the technological
> >> > advances, it became economically feasible to have a “leisure culture.”
> >> > However with this culture of leisure comes a raising of standards and
> >> > consequently a “surplus-repression.” This is repression is the
> repression of
> >> > Freudian pleasures, conceding or flat out rejecting the gratification
> of
> >> > many desires which Freud saw as necessary for a society to organize
> and
> >> > survive. Marcuse argues that by denying these pleasures principles
> that
> >> > “advanced civilizations are in danger from a second group of
> instinctive
> >> > impulses striving for death.” This, Hite states, is where we get the
> >> > dramatization of the destruction from the rocket, as it becomes
> global. She
> >> > argues “The V-2 Rocket rises under human guidance..” and this is
> where we
> >> > understand the “death drive.” This is the natural tendency of
> society, to
> >> > progress to a certain point, and then fall into the death drive; the
> arc of
> >> > human civilization not unlike the arc of the bomb.
> >> >
> >> >             Hite states that Pynchon understood Marcuse’s possibility
> of
> >> > escape from postindustrial destruction, and encoded it in his book,
> however
> >> > slight this chance might be. By not becoming individuals we are
> doomed to,
> >> > as individuality in Gravity’s Rainbowis synonymous with disrupting the
> >> > productivity and subsequent regression of human nature. This is where
> the
> >> > overt sexual tones of the book come from, especially the more risqué
> ones.
> >> > These sexual acts are done not in hopes of productivity, or
> reproducing, but
> >> > simply out of pleasure. By not denying these pleasures and becoming
> >> > individual of the society, we can escape the trajectory of
> destruction. Hite
> >> > does acknowledge that these chances are incredibly small, that
> betrayal and
> >> > self-defeating tendencies are built into the system, that “every
> revolution
> >> > has been a betrayed revolution.” So for Hite’s interpretation,
> humanity is
> >> > at stake, the trajectory is annihilation, and Pynchon offers a way to
> escape
> >> > that trajectory.
> >> >
> >> >             I would like to agree with Hite in her thinking. In the
> very
> >> > beginning of the novel, we are introduced with a very dark image of
> the
> >> > concentration camp, with people being ushered into a bleak hotel. At
> that
> >> > hotel, they wait quietly for the bomb to drop without any hope left.
> Right
> >> > after we get that dark image, we are given one of the most colorful
> scenes
> >> > in the novel, the banana breakfast. After a night of indulging in
> alcohol to
> >> > excess, Pirate wakes up and picks bananas, something that was rationed
> >> > during the time period. He then begins to cook a wonderful breakfast
> >> > consisting of banana everything, and the scent alone is enough to
> ward of
> >> > death, Pynchon famously says “Fuck Death.” So by indulging in this
> pleasure,
> >> > they are able to escape death, they are able to escape the trajectory
> of
> >> > human nature even just for a morning. I believe scenes like this are
> a clear
> >> > road map that Pynchon gives us, that maybe by not denying these
> pleasures we
> >> > might be able to get out of the arc of human nature, or in Pynchon’s
> work,
> >> > the literal bomb. The chances are slim however, these people are
> protected
> >> > only as long as the scent of the banana breakfast wafts over them,
> but the
> >> > chance does exist.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Hite, Molly, “‘Fun Was Actually Becoming Quite Subversive’: Herbert
> >> > Marcuse, the Yippies, and the Value System of Gravity’s Rainbow,”
> >> > Contemporary Literature 51.4 (Winter 2010): 677-702. <
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> https://englit0500.wordpress.com/2014/04/01/fun-actually-was-actually-becoming-subversive/
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > - Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
> >>
> >> -
> >> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> >
> >
>
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