Grace again. Misc.

[Paul Mackin]

was just playing with words but I am actually interested in development of
Christianity especially late antiquity and reformation

On Aug 1, 2017 9:36 PM, "David Morris" <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:

> You been smokin' the wacky?
>
> Extreme conjecture of time relativity to one's possible personal eternal
> existence (afterlife?). If personal consciousness survives beyond death,
> why should it forever be banished from this world?  And why not be my dog
> in that next life.  He's got it really good.
>
> David Morris
>
> On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 5:36 PM Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Maybe existence in Eternity is meant to mimic life in time. It just isn't
>> fair.
>>
>> Or, maybe, nothing can actually happen in Eternity, neither Salvation nor
>> Damnation, since you need a time dimension for any kind of action.
>> Eternity is just a placeholder.l
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 4:10 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Luther's Grace evolved into Calvin's predestination for the very reason
>>> you cite:  If it is completely unearned, then why do some receive it while
>>> others don't?
>>>
>>> Paradox doesn't make sense.
>>>
>>> David Morris
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've never heard tell of any theologians on the p-list but it seems to
>>>> me Luther's notion of grace is so otherworldly it could be of little use to
>>>> novelists. It's just too totally other, as Luther's God is totally other.
>>>> It doesn't help poor sinful humanity to be good. It doesn't make dodos talk
>>>> or Byron eternal.  It doesn't do anything material or physical.  It IS
>>>> free.  You don't have to do anything, or say anything. You don't even have
>>>> to whistle.  It CAN save you from damnation, but that's off in eternity
>>>> somewhere.
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 2:09 AM, Kai Frederik Lorentzen <
>>>> lorentzen at hotmail.de> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, but the question is whether Pynchon's use of the word is,
>>>>> perhaps, closer to Luther's teaching on Grace than it is to the other ones
>>>>> that were mentioned in this thread.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there a theologian on board?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Am 31.07.2017 um 12:56 schrieb David Morris:
>>>>>
>>>>> Luther's revolution was born of his concept of Grace.  Say "grace,"
>>>>> hear Luther.
>>>>>
>>>>> David Morris
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 2:32 AM Kai Frederik Lorentzen <
>>>>> lorentzen at hotmail.de> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Could it be that Pynchon's understanding of Grace is Lutheran?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > ... Martin Luther’s theology can be fundamentally construed as the
>>>>>> development of his thought regarding the nature of grace, the nature of
>>>>>> God’s favor and blessing bestowed upon undeserving human beings. The many
>>>>>> dimensions of Luther’s biblical teaching and theological reflection have,
>>>>>> in the background a desire to understand God’s grace most fully revealed in
>>>>>> Jesus Christ. As such, Luther’s concepts of the righteousness of God,
>>>>>> justification by faith, the bound will, the distinction of law and gospel,
>>>>>> the new obedience, the “happy exchange,” and many related concepts are, at
>>>>>> heart, attempts to describe what it is to have a God of grace.
>>>>>> Most interpreters have rightly understood that in Luther’s view, to
>>>>>> have a gracious God means to have a God who does not require human beings
>>>>>> to fulfill a set of prerequisites in order to receive God’s gift in Christ
>>>>>> or to reciprocate God’s giving in order to continue receiving Christ and
>>>>>> his benefits. For Luther, to have a God of grace means to believe and trust
>>>>>> that through Jesus Christ, God has already met all prerequisites and
>>>>>> fulfilled all reciprocations. On this point, Luther found himself breaking
>>>>>> new ground (or recovering lost ground) in the understanding of divine
>>>>>> grace. Luther “broke” with those theological forebears who taught that
>>>>>> divine grace was, in one way or another, partly dependent on human willing
>>>>>> and doing. For Luther, God graciously wills and works “all in all.”
>>>>>> Nevertheless, when Luther’s many descriptions of what it is to “have a
>>>>>> gracious God” are analyzed, a more nuanced understanding of the
>>>>>> relationship between the One giving the gift and the ones receiving it
>>>>>> begins to reveal itself. For Luther, faith—that gracious means through
>>>>>> which God graciously bestows the righteousness of Christ—creates a dynamic
>>>>>> rather than static experience of possessing and being possessed of a God of
>>>>>> grace ... <
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://religion.oxfordre.com/view/10.1093/acrefore/
>>>>>> 9780199340378.001.0001/acrefore-9780199340378-e-335
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am 30.07.2017 um 13:58 schrieb Mark Kohut:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In Calvinism and other religious traditions, grace gets earned--or
>>>>>> shown-- by human free will choices.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> if grace is not earned or shown-- by free will human choices, then
>>>>>> grace as Pynchon uses it, is unearned, totally unexpected (by Lew and in
>>>>>> the text) and is somehow a function of the cosmos. Chance or otherwise. No?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 7:41 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If Free Will replaces Grace, then it is it's equal, not its opposite.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> David Morris
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 5:27 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now THAT'S an answer I did not expect---nor really know (although I
>>>>>>>> know some of that shit from that tradition).
>>>>>>>> Another theologian rendered into the dustbin of churchyards because
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> Augustine's dominance.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A heretic, P's tradition. One might say a theological preterite,
>>>>>>>> analogously speaking? As Bailey alludes, and Morris fills in:
>>>>>>>> a kind of theological shlemiel, maybe? Profane Pelagius.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm going to suggest that as Pynchon transformed the concept of
>>>>>>>> Grace within the religious tradition, for him
>>>>>>>> in the fiction, it became like "the free will" of the
>>>>>>>> cosmos---which might all be predetermined, of course, per your
>>>>>>>> observation---
>>>>>>>> when Lew experienced it unexpectedly.....when Against the Day
>>>>>>>> ends....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 5:16 PM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In the way back, Pelagius (St Agustine's antagonist) thought we
>>>>>>>>> didn't need Grace--that our free will was sufficient to overcome sin. So,
>>>>>>>>> the opposite of Grace is Free Will.  Which science now says doesn't exist.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 4:03 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From the wayback (but eternal?) religious uses, the opposite
>>>>>>>>>> might be damnation.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What might it be in Pynchon's transformation of the meaning of
>>>>>>>>>> the word?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Jochen Stremmel <
>>>>>>>>>> jstremmel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You are the native speaker, Mark, but I would say it's bullshit
>>>>>>>>>>> if you don't provide context. What kind of grace? You have disgrace, you
>>>>>>>>>>> have clumsiness, I'm sure you have more opposites of grace.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 2017-07-29 21:11 GMT+02:00 Erik T. Burns <eburns at gmail.com>:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I suggest "trump"
>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: ‎7/‎29/‎2017 20:06
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Grace again. Misc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Gracelessness is an absence of grace, but the English language
>>>>>>>>>>>> lacks a word for the opposite of grace.--Cass Sunstein, very
>>>>>>>>>>>> recent essay.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
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