Grace again. Misc.

[Seymour Landnau]

Grace involves a lack of resistance, so there's probably not things like
grace under fire, grace under pressure.  Grace under any sort of force,
internal or external, would be something else, maybe appearing to be grace
but not actually.  Any sort of gravity, whether physical or spiritual, will
distort grace.  Fear also being antithetical to grace.

Speaking of which, and the only reason I said anything up there, is because
I just last evening happened upon another example, besides the Lewsian, of
the Writer using grace.  This is on two.one.three., sixteenth line from the
bottom, which would be what, the penultimate line times eight, or point
zero zero two to the eighth power.  I don't have The Tome with me.  Reef is
trying to collect his dead father Webb (who, whatever the Writer may
suggest around these parts, is not, or was not, rest in peace, The Kid, of
dynamite proportions) from the top of the Persian tower with the two
grappling hooks and not being too....graceful, I suppose, about it.  Local
kids, whose pets are the vultures that eat the dead laid out by the people
of Jeriwhatever, are watching.  It says something like Reef "normally he
would have drawn grace from the kids, but he wasn't feeling amiable."

Because I am so damned graceful I am not one who puts much weight into
meditating on what writers really mean by things, but I stumbled on this,
so why not: seems to suppose that kids have like an abundance of grace
available for the sharing, or taking, or using, but that amiableness is
required.

I have a personal limit, which I refuse to cross, of carrying books over
10000 pages out of the house with me.  What I do have with me right now, is
Plato's Phaedrus.  It fits perfectly in my pocket.  You can say that I have
Plato in the pocket...




On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 8:35 AM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com> wrote:

> was just playing with words but I am actually interested in development of
> Christianity especially late antiquity and reformation
>
> On Aug 1, 2017 9:36 PM, "David Morris" <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> You been smokin' the wacky?
>>
>> Extreme conjecture of time relativity to one's possible personal eternal
>> existence (afterlife?). If personal consciousness survives beyond death,
>> why should it forever be banished from this world?  And why not be my dog
>> in that next life.  He's got it really good.
>>
>> David Morris
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 5:36 PM Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Maybe existence in Eternity is meant to mimic life in time. It just
>>> isn't fair.
>>>
>>> Or, maybe, nothing can actually happen in Eternity, neither Salvation
>>> nor Damnation, since you need a time dimension for any kind of action.
>>> Eternity is just a placeholder.l
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 4:10 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Luther's Grace evolved into Calvin's predestination for the very reason
>>>> you cite:  If it is completely unearned, then why do some receive it while
>>>> others don't?
>>>>
>>>> Paradox doesn't make sense.
>>>>
>>>> David Morris
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Paul Mackin <mackin.paul at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I've never heard tell of any theologians on the p-list but it seems to
>>>>> me Luther's notion of grace is so otherworldly it could be of little use to
>>>>> novelists. It's just too totally other, as Luther's God is totally other.
>>>>> It doesn't help poor sinful humanity to be good. It doesn't make dodos talk
>>>>> or Byron eternal.  It doesn't do anything material or physical.  It IS
>>>>> free.  You don't have to do anything, or say anything. You don't even have
>>>>> to whistle.  It CAN save you from damnation, but that's off in eternity
>>>>> somewhere.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 2:09 AM, Kai Frederik Lorentzen <
>>>>> lorentzen at hotmail.de> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, but the question is whether Pynchon's use of the word is,
>>>>>> perhaps, closer to Luther's teaching on Grace than it is to the other ones
>>>>>> that were mentioned in this thread.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there a theologian on board?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am 31.07.2017 um 12:56 schrieb David Morris:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Luther's revolution was born of his concept of Grace.  Say "grace,"
>>>>>> hear Luther.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David Morris
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 2:32 AM Kai Frederik Lorentzen <
>>>>>> lorentzen at hotmail.de> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Could it be that Pynchon's understanding of Grace is Lutheran?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > ... Martin Luther’s theology can be fundamentally construed as the
>>>>>>> development of his thought regarding the nature of grace, the nature of
>>>>>>> God’s favor and blessing bestowed upon undeserving human beings. The many
>>>>>>> dimensions of Luther’s biblical teaching and theological reflection have,
>>>>>>> in the background a desire to understand God’s grace most fully revealed in
>>>>>>> Jesus Christ. As such, Luther’s concepts of the righteousness of God,
>>>>>>> justification by faith, the bound will, the distinction of law and gospel,
>>>>>>> the new obedience, the “happy exchange,” and many related concepts are, at
>>>>>>> heart, attempts to describe what it is to have a God of grace.
>>>>>>> Most interpreters have rightly understood that in Luther’s view, to
>>>>>>> have a gracious God means to have a God who does not require human beings
>>>>>>> to fulfill a set of prerequisites in order to receive God’s gift in Christ
>>>>>>> or to reciprocate God’s giving in order to continue receiving Christ and
>>>>>>> his benefits. For Luther, to have a God of grace means to believe and trust
>>>>>>> that through Jesus Christ, God has already met all prerequisites and
>>>>>>> fulfilled all reciprocations. On this point, Luther found himself breaking
>>>>>>> new ground (or recovering lost ground) in the understanding of divine
>>>>>>> grace. Luther “broke” with those theological forebears who taught that
>>>>>>> divine grace was, in one way or another, partly dependent on human willing
>>>>>>> and doing. For Luther, God graciously wills and works “all in all.”
>>>>>>> Nevertheless, when Luther’s many descriptions of what it is to “have a
>>>>>>> gracious God” are analyzed, a more nuanced understanding of the
>>>>>>> relationship between the One giving the gift and the ones receiving it
>>>>>>> begins to reveal itself. For Luther, faith—that gracious means through
>>>>>>> which God graciously bestows the righteousness of Christ—creates a dynamic
>>>>>>> rather than static experience of possessing and being possessed of a God of
>>>>>>> grace ... <
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://religion.oxfordre.com/view/10.1093/acrefore/978019934
>>>>>>> 0378.001.0001/acrefore-9780199340378-e-335
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Am 30.07.2017 um 13:58 schrieb Mark Kohut:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In Calvinism and other religious traditions, grace gets earned--or
>>>>>>> shown-- by human free will choices.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> if grace is not earned or shown-- by free will human choices, then
>>>>>>> grace as Pynchon uses it, is unearned, totally unexpected (by Lew and in
>>>>>>> the text) and is somehow a function of the cosmos. Chance or otherwise. No?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 7:41 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If Free Will replaces Grace, then it is it's equal, not its
>>>>>>>> opposite.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> David Morris
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 5:27 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Now THAT'S an answer I did not expect---nor really know (although
>>>>>>>>> I know some of that shit from that tradition).
>>>>>>>>> Another theologian rendered into the dustbin of churchyards
>>>>>>>>> because of
>>>>>>>>> Augustine's dominance.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A heretic, P's tradition. One might say a theological preterite,
>>>>>>>>> analogously speaking? As Bailey alludes, and Morris fills in:
>>>>>>>>> a kind of theological shlemiel, maybe? Profane Pelagius.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm going to suggest that as Pynchon transformed the concept of
>>>>>>>>> Grace within the religious tradition, for him
>>>>>>>>> in the fiction, it became like "the free will" of the
>>>>>>>>> cosmos---which might all be predetermined, of course, per your
>>>>>>>>> observation---
>>>>>>>>> when Lew experienced it unexpectedly.....when Against the Day
>>>>>>>>> ends....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 5:16 PM, Paul Mackin <
>>>>>>>>> mackin.paul at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In the way back, Pelagius (St Agustine's antagonist) thought we
>>>>>>>>>> didn't need Grace--that our free will was sufficient to overcome sin. So,
>>>>>>>>>> the opposite of Grace is Free Will.  Which science now says doesn't exist.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 4:03 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> From the wayback (but eternal?) religious uses, the opposite
>>>>>>>>>>> might be damnation.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What might it be in Pynchon's transformation of the meaning of
>>>>>>>>>>> the word?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 29, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Jochen Stremmel <
>>>>>>>>>>> jstremmel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You are the native speaker, Mark, but I would say it's bullshit
>>>>>>>>>>>> if you don't provide context. What kind of grace? You have disgrace, you
>>>>>>>>>>>> have clumsiness, I'm sure you have more opposites of grace.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2017-07-29 21:11 GMT+02:00 Erik T. Burns <eburns at gmail.com>:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suggest "trump"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: ‎7/‎29/‎2017 20:06
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: pynchon -l <pynchon-l at waste.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Grace again. Misc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gracelessness is an absence of grace, but the English
>>>>>>>>>>>>> language lacks a word for the opposite of grace.--Cass
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sunstein, very recent essay.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://waste.org/pipermail/pynchon-l/attachments/20170802/f12c4b82/attachment.html>