pynchon-l-digest V2 #13640

[roycross]

I love my Pynchon digest lurkingly, but why is the format - on my laptop, at least - such a dog's dinner? Anyone know?
Roy

Sent from my iPad

> On 6 Aug 2017, at 11:53, pynchon-l-digest <owner-pynchon-l-digest at waste.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> pynchon-l-digest       Sunday, August 6 2017       Volume 02 : Number 13640
> 
> 
> 
> [none]
> [none]
> 
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> 
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> 
> Must just say I really like these mini-essays taking off from Pynchon's
> texts that you occasionally do, Joseph. I
> wish we all talked about the notions, themes, meanings of certain great
> books this way more often.The text and our minds merging, so to speak.
> Even, of course,
> what we may disagree with can become fruitful...like talk about real
> life...which Joseph never loses sight of in these riffs.
> 
> To this I will only throw out my first thought.....after the last sum-up
> paragraph with the exhortation for a different kind of grace,
> I thought of the last words of ATD, "flying off toward grace" and, soon,
> WW2. Sad.
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sat, Aug 5, 2017 at 2:05 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>> 
>> Nice review.
>> 
>> " He understood that things were exactly what they were.=E2=80=9D Along w=
> ith this
>> zen like reflection there is a contrast playng out in ATD , between Vibe=
> =E2=80=99s
>> ultra-clavinist version of grace :  financial success, persecution of
>> heretics, co-option of talent( all things work together for good for the
>> those who love God =E2=80=A6, unmerited but evident in wealth and power, =
> children
>> inheriting the kingdom,  aligned with western civilization's western
>> movement, and alternately  the version of grace that plays out  with Lew =
> B,
>> the Traverse family, Cyprian and the Chums.  Lew freed from guilt of
>> unknown crime takes on job of seeing things as they are( thus aligned wit=
> h
>> history of detectives , a recurrant structure in P=E2=80=99s writing),  T=
> he
>> Traverses seem destined to struggle with search for love/truth/revolution
>> and to be changed by that, Cyprian moves from agent of empire to agent of
>> revolution to contemplative from hypersexuality to ascetic,  the Chums(
>> mythic fictional adventurers) move from working blindly for some unknown
>> force of good to becoming self aware, asking questions,  crossing
>> boundaries , hooking up with the feminine. Overall the movement of this
>> non-Vibe grace is away from empire, away from trusting some benign flow o=
> f
>> history, away from inherited authority and toward inner and personal
>> change, toward the humanizing and almost unaable to bear exploration of
>> freedom as lived experience.
>>  Pynchon enjoins the necessity of this kind of movement by showing the
>> calamity of western civilization with its confidence in divine grace,
>> machine guns, experimental mathematics, electricity and oceans of oil
>> producing trench warfare. A different version of grace seems called for.
>> 
>> 
>>> They belong more to the preterite than the elect.
>> Here I have to respectfully disagree but only half disagree. This future
>> where things are what they are  is a future that belongs to everyone, not
>> in some falsely reassuring sense but a future made from what is by who is=
> .
>> Preterite and elect are made evident as describing polarities no longer
>> applicable as useful maps of the terrain. The schlemiels of V seem sadly =
> to
>> be little changed at the end of the novel, everyone a better illustration
>> of Dantes hell than his paradise. The chums may be made up but they are i=
> n
>> fux and flying.
>> 
>> In my own attempt to reconcile with the world as it is, what I don=E2=80=
> =99t know
>> becomes larger, and what I know has to be approached more humbly. How
>> broadly this applies I don=E2=80=99t know.
>>> On Aug 5, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com> wrote=
> :
>>> 
>>> Echoes:
>>> 
>>> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 13:28:28 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
>>> From: kelber@[omitted]
>>> To: pynchon-l@[omitted]
>>> Subject: ATDTDA - grace
>>> 
>>> TRP uses (and defines) the word "grace," on p.42.  It's also the final
>> word of the novel.  Not sure if there are other references in between.
>>> 
>>> P. 42:
>>> "One mild and ordinary work-morning in Chicago, Lew happened to find
>> himself on a public conveyance, head and eyes inclined nowhere in
>> particular, when he entered, all too briefly, a condition he had no memor=
> y
>> of having sought, which he later came to think of as grace."  Next
>> paragraph:  "He understood that things were exactly what they were.  It
>> seemed more than he could bear."
>>> 
>>> Right after this, he's hired by White City Investigations, after
>> impressing Nate with his ability to observe things (just as they are?).
>>> 
>>> A couple of reviewers seemed to take the mention of grace at the end of
>> the book in its religious sense.  The Inconvenience has become sort of a
>> public conveyance, the world in microcosm, and it flies toward grace.  Bu=
> t
>> if grace is understanding that things are exactly what they are, it seems
>> that TRP has something other than the religious connotation in mind.
>> Things that are exactly what they are don't have any particular grace of
>> god bestowed on them.  They belong more to the preterite than the elect.
>>> 
>>> On a totally different plane, maybe TRP had this in mind:
>>> 
>>> "The goal of the Gravity Recovery And Climate Experiment (GRACE) space
>> mission is to obtain accurate global and high-resolution determination of
>> both the static and the time-variable components of the Earth's gravity
>> field."
>>> 
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_Recovery_and_Climate_Experiment
>>> 
>>> Laura
>>> 
>>> *
>>> [my reply]
>>>> TRP uses (and defines) the word "grace" on p.42...
>>> 
>>> That's a *very* nice connection to the GRACE experiment =E2=80=93 utter=
> ly
>> appropriate, whether TRP had it in mind or not.
>>> 
>>> A few more:
>>> 
>>>> From my segment coming up -- Merle in the herbal trade with "the silen=
> t
>> women up in the foothills": "They lived for different futures, but they
>> were each other's unrecognized halves, and what fascination between them
>> did come to pass was lit up, beyond question, with grace." (70)
>>> 
>>> Reef trying to scale the towers in Jeshimon: "His attempts soon gathere=
> d
>> an audience, mostly of children, from whom ordinarily he would have drawn
>> grace, but his amiability had deserted him." (215)
>>> 
>>> Lake and Deuce in their wedding chapel: "Though scarcely any music ever
>> came this way, the stray mouth-harpist or whistling drifter who did pass
>> through the crooked doors found himself elevated into more grace than the
>> acoustics of his way would have granted him so far." (236)
>>> 
>>> Dally returns to Chicago: "Somewhere in her head, she'd had this notion
>> that because the White City had once existed beside the Lake, in Jackson
>> Park, it would have acted somehow like yeast in bread and caused the enti=
> re
>> city to bloom into some kind of grace." (336)
>>> 
>>> TRP practically kicks us in the shin with subteen chanteuse Angela (aka
>> Angel o') Grace (399-401)
>>> 
>>> Tace on Lake's half-formed hope of changing Deuce: "You think he's so
>> good," Tace went on, "just a boy that's lost, that it? and you can bring
>> him back, all you need to do's love him enough, love your enemy into some
>> kind of redeeming grace for the both of you? Applesauce, young lady."
>> (482-483)
>>> 
>>> Quaternioneers out of favor: "Having been inseparable from the rise of
>> the electromagnetic in human affairs, the Hamiltonian devotees had now,
>> fallen from grace, come to embody, for the established scientific religio=
> n,
>> a subversive, indeed heretical, faith for whom proscription and exile wer=
> e
>> too good." (526)
>>> 
>>> Lew on his way to investigate the Gas cult: "The first pale husbands of
>> the evening stood waiting for suburban trains never meant to arrive at an=
> y
>> destination on the rail map-as if, to be brought to any shelter this nigh=
> t,
>> one would first have to step across into some region of grace hitherto
>> undefined." (609)
>>> 
>>> That last one is *so* reminiscent of all the unmapped routes we came to
>> know in the Zone.
>>> 
>>> Anyway, the G-word keeps popping up all along. I know I can be
>> repetitive ("monomaniac"..? WHO SAID THAT?!) about the schemes of sin and
>> preterition and just-maybe-redemption in all the books. I'm not even a
>> Christian myself. But dammit (so to speak), he's been tugging at our
>> sleeves about it ever since Christmas Eve 1955 on old East Main...
>>> 
>>> "Profane had figured at first that he was only the disembodied object o=
> f
>> a corporal work of mercy. That, in the company of innumerable small and
>> wounded animals, bums on the street, near-dying and lost to God, he was
>> only another means to grace or indulgence for Fina..." (V p. 134 (Harper)=
> )
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sat, Aug 5, 2017 at 9:54 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com> wrote=
> :
>>> Yeahp. When Lew experiences Grace, immediately after that explosion, as
>> if it sorta caused it almost, the narrator tells us this.
>>> 
>>> Which--Jochen reminding us of Hemingway's "grace under pressure"
>> line---hit me for the first time as another possible level of allusive
>> 'ambiguity': a little Hemingway joke.
>>> 
>>> On Sat, Aug 5, 2017 at 9:47 AM, Becky Lindroos <bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net=
>> 
>> wrote:
>>> There=E2=80=99s a difference, sometimes huge but sometimes tiny, betwee=
> n caring
>> about what an author=E2=80=99s views or ideas are and those of his narrat=
> or.   I
>> think we do have to care about what all the narrator here means his use o=
> f
>> the word =E2=80=9Cgrace=E2=80=9D  because it=E2=80=99s a fair part of the=
> book and it=E2=80=99s an
>> important word.   Pynchon may or may not be having his narrator use it in
>> complete accord with what he sits down seriously and consciously believes
>> himself.
>>> 
>>> So going into Pynchon=E2=80=99s background can be misleading but paying=
> absolute
>> attention to the context of the use in the narrator sections is vital.
>> Close reading time.
>>> 
>>> Becky
>>> https://beckylindroos.wordpress.com
>>> 
>>>> On Aug 5, 2017, at 6:48 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I  *really* don't care about what religion Pynchon was or is.  I
>> prefer to read his works without him intruding.  His aversion to intervie=
> ws
>> indicates he feels the same way.
>>>> 
>>>> David Morris
>>>> 
>>>> On Sat, Aug 5, 2017 at 3:47 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>> Slothrop is, at least, an anti-Puritan.
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>> 
>>>>> On Aug 4, 2017, at 11:12 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>         My intention was to bring some background to the word and
>> its religious roots and changing use .  It is my sense that P has deep
>> historic knowledge of such core words and concepts and this is one of the
>> few areas where I have some knowledge and research to draw on  myself
>> because of my own history.  As far as Pynchon=E2=80=99s beliefs, I wonder=
> if we
>> know that much. It is my memory that he expressed interested in Catholici=
> sm
>> as a university student, but I have never heard anything to indicate  tha=
> t
>> this interest/faith continued through his life or writing career. Do you
>> have something that supports the idea that he remained a Catholic?   He
>> shapes some pretty intense satiric fables pointed at Catholicism and
>> Puritanism in V and GR.  The chums of chance have Christian overtones.
>>>>>> On Aug 4, 2017, at 8:05 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> All interesting, of course.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> But Pynchon is Catholic, not Protestant, not Calvinist.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> "Puritan" perhaps, as America is/was in his formative years and
>> beyond, and before-- as many have written about.  Roth, The Last Puritan =
> or
>> THE PURITAN MIND, Larzer Ziff for examples, Ziff who tries to subtilize a=
> ll
>> the paradoxes and their hidden places in America and our minds.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In Weber, Catholic Spain was a Spirit of Capitalism failure, just
>> misc.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Aug 4, 2017, at 3:36 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote=
> :
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The earliest appearance in the scriptures of the word has the
>> usage of favor: Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. This use appear=
> s
>> several times in Genesis and though some say it means mercy it seems to
>> more specifically mean favor.( hence disgraced means shamed/lost from
>> favor) So there is a Hebrew word( chen)meaning favor that is used
>> frequently in the Torah and is taken up in the new testament
>>>>>>> by both the gospel writer of the book of John ( the law came by
>> Moses, but grace and truth through Jesus)  and by Paul, who dominates
>> theological interpretation of the life of Jesus( whom he never met, and
>> appeared to know little of his  teachings as presented in the Gospels) .
>> Paul was multi lingual as a preacher to Greeks, Syrians, Romans and was
>> steeped in Hebrew, the scriptures,Phariseeism and probably Aramaic. It
>> seems likely that he was taking the core concept and word from Genesis an=
> d
>> giving it a particularly Christian mystical spin. Paul is the source of t=
> he
>> concept of predetermination of the destiny of the individual to be either
>> saved or lost.  That concept was challenged at the time by James, the
>> brother of Jesus and leader of the early church in Jerusalem who did not
>> care for Paul=E2=80=99s teachings, but again Paul dominates the churches
>> interpretation  especially among the Protestants. For many protestants
>> grace became the dividing line between salvation and damnation with this
>> idea being most clearly enunciated by Calvin. The Puritans were Calvinist=
> s
>> and P=E2=80=99s personal lineage though with an heretical streak..
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I agree with David Morris that despite this weighty background,
>> Pynchon plays with the linguistic nuances that the word( grace of a dance=
> r,
>> graceful exit, graciuos host)  has acquired including letting  the Purita=
> n
>> heritage play out its role among the characters he creates. One must be
>> careful to not overly connect the language of a pyncho character with his
>> own beliefs or language.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Luther and Calvin derive their concept of grace, Luther as a
>> function of loving parental abundance and the" finished work of Christ =
> =E2=80=9C
>> and Calvin more mechanistically as a kind of prearranged divine
>> mathematics, from Paul.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I spent a lot of years with the Bible and came away with some
>> knowledge but little love for its sway in human affairs or my own life. T=
> he
>> Pauine concept of grace and its theological explication seems diseased to
>> me, a way of giving up agency and justifying powerful bullies. I personal=
> ly
>> use the word only when it is clear I am talking about elegant flow in art
>> or physical movement. That human experience of the transcendent includes
>> mercy and the renewal that mercy brings seems natural and does not  requi=
> re
>> a lot of theological pyrotechnics.  We don=E2=80=99t need to spend our li=
> ves going
>> back and forth on the same bus going one way then the other. Just get off
>> the bus and live.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I see Pynchon as a humane satirist, a chronicler of alternative
>> history from an outsider perspective, and wildly liberated spinner of 3
>> dimensional stories that include mythos, conspracy theory,  colorful but
>> credible fiction, and historic events in fairly equal measure.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Jul 29, 2017, at 3:28 PM, Jochen Stremmel <jstremmel at gmail.co=
> m>
>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> You are the native speaker, Mark, but I would say it's bullshit
>> if you don't provide context. What kind of grace? You have disgrace, you
>> have clumsiness, I'm sure you have more opposites of grace.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 2017-07-29 21:11 GMT+02:00 Erik T. Burns <eburns at gmail.com>:
>>>>>>>> I suggest "trump"
>>>>>>>> From: Mark Kohut
>>>>>>>> Sent: =E2=80=8E7/=E2=80=8E29/=E2=80=8E2017 20:06
>>>>>>>> To: pynchon -l
>>>>>>>> Subject: Grace again. Misc.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Gracelessness is an absence of grace, but the English language
>> lacks a word for the opposite of grace.--Cass Sunstein, very recent essay=
> .
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=3Dpynchon-l
>>>>>> -
>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list
>>>>> 
>>>>> -
>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=3Dpynchon-l
>>>> -
>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>> 
>> -
>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> 
> --94eb2c199f2094de910556131dc6
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> 
> <div dir=3D"ltr">Must just say I really like these mini-essays taking off f=
> rom Pynchon's texts that you occasionally do, Joseph. I<div>wish we all=
> talked about the notions, themes, meanings of certain great books this way=
> more often.The text and our minds merging, so to speak.=C2=A0</div><div>=
> =C2=A0Even, of course,</div><div>what we may disagree with can become fruit=
> ful...like talk about real life...which Joseph never loses sight of in thes=
> e riffs.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>To this I will only throw out my fi=
> rst thought.....after the last sum-up paragraph with the exhortation for a =
> different kind of grace,</div><div>I thought of the last words of ATD, &quo=
> t;flying off toward grace" and, soon, WW2. Sad.=C2=A0</div><div><br></=
> div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail=
> _quote">On Sat, Aug 5, 2017 at 2:05 PM, Joseph Tracy <span dir=3D"ltr"><=
> <a href=3D"mailto:brook7 at sover.net" target=3D"_blank">brook7 at sover.net</a>&=
> gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
> 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Nice review.<br>
> <br>
> " He understood that things were exactly what they were.=E2=80=9D Alon=
> g with this zen like reflection there is a contrast playng out in ATD , bet=
> ween Vibe=E2=80=99s=C2=A0 ultra-clavinist version of grace :=C2=A0 financia=
> l success, persecution of heretics, co-option of talent( all things work to=
> gether for good for the those who love God =E2=80=A6, unmerited but evident=
> in wealth and power, children inheriting the kingdom,=C2=A0 aligned with w=
> estern civilization's western movement, and alternately=C2=A0 the versi=
> on of grace that plays out=C2=A0 with Lew B, the Traverse family, Cyprian a=
> nd the Chums.=C2=A0 Lew freed from guilt of unknown crime takes on job of s=
> eeing things as they are( thus aligned with history of detectives , a recur=
> rant structure in P=E2=80=99s writing),=C2=A0 The Traverses seem destined t=
> o struggle with search for love/truth/revolution=C2=A0 and to be changed by=
> that, Cyprian moves from agent of empire to agent of revolution to contemp=
> lative from hypersexuality to ascetic,=C2=A0 the Chums( mythic fictional ad=
> venturers) move from working blindly for some unknown force of good to beco=
> ming self aware, asking questions,=C2=A0 crossing boundaries , hooking up w=
> ith the feminine. Overall the movement of this non-Vibe grace is away from =
> empire, away from trusting some benign flow of history, away from inherited=
> authority and toward inner and personal change, toward the humanizing and =
> almost unaable to bear exploration of freedom as lived experience.<br>
> =C2=A0 Pynchon enjoins the necessity of this kind of movement by showing th=
> e calamity of western civilization with its confidence in divine grace, mac=
> hine guns, experimental mathematics, electricity and oceans of oil producin=
> g trench warfare. A different version of grace seems called for.<br>
> <span class=3D""><br>
> <br>
> >=C2=A0 They belong more to the preterite than the elect.<br>
> </span>Here I have to respectfully disagree but only half disagree. This fu=
> ture=C2=A0 where things are what they are=C2=A0 is a future that belongs to=
> everyone, not in some falsely reassuring sense but a future made from what=
> is by who is. Preterite and elect are made evident as describing polaritie=
> s no longer applicable as useful maps of the terrain. The schlemiels of V s=
> eem sadly to be little changed at the end of the novel, everyone a better i=
> llustration of Dantes hell than his paradise. The chums may be made up but =
> they are in fux and flying.<br>
> <br>
> =C2=A0In my own attempt to reconcile with the world as it is, what I don=E2=
> =80=99t know becomes larger, and what I know has to be approached more humb=
> ly. How broadly this applies I don=E2=80=99t know.<br>
> <div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">> On Aug 5, 2017, at 10:37 AM, M=
> onte Davis <<a href=3D"mailto:montedavis49 at gmail.com">montedavis49 at gmail=
> .com</a>> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > Echoes:<br>
> ><br>
> > Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 13:28:28 -0500 (GMT-05:00)<br>
> > From: kelber@[omitted]<br>
> > To: pynchon-l@[omitted]<br>
> > Subject: ATDTDA - grace<br>
> ><br>
> > TRP uses (and defines) the word "grace," on p.42.=C2=A0 It&#=
> 39;s also the final word of the novel.=C2=A0 Not sure if there are other re=
> ferences in between.<br>
> ><br>
> > P. 42:<br>
> > "One mild and ordinary work-morning in Chicago, Lew happened to f=
> ind himself on a public conveyance, head and eyes inclined nowhere in parti=
> cular, when he entered, all too briefly, a condition he had no memory of ha=
> ving sought, which he later came to think of as grace."=C2=A0 Next par=
> agraph:=C2=A0 "He understood that things were exactly what they were.=
> =C2=A0 It seemed more than he could bear."<br>
> ><br>
> > Right after this, he's hired by White City Investigations, after i=
> mpressing Nate with his ability to observe things (just as they are?).<br>
> ><br>
> > A couple of reviewers seemed to take the mention of grace at the end o=
> f the book in its religious sense.=C2=A0 The Inconvenience has become sort =
> of a public conveyance, the world in microcosm, and it flies toward grace.=
> =C2=A0 But if grace is understanding that things are exactly what they are,=
> it seems that TRP has something other than the religious connotation in mi=
> nd.=C2=A0 Things that are exactly what they are don't have any particul=
> ar grace of god bestowed on them.=C2=A0 They belong more to the preterite t=
> han the elect.<br>
> ><br>
> > On a totally different plane, maybe TRP had this in mind:<br>
> ><br>
> > "The goal of the Gravity Recovery And Climate Experiment (GRACE) =
> space mission is to obtain accurate global and high-resolution determinatio=
> n of both the static and the time-variable components of the Earth's gr=
> avity field."<br>
> ><br>
> > <a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_Recovery_and_Climate_E=
> xperiment" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wik=
> i/<wbr>Gravity_Recovery_and_Climate_<wbr>Experiment</a><br>
> ><br>
> > Laura<br>
> ><br>
> > *<br>
> > [my reply]<br>
> > > TRP uses (and defines) the word "grace" on p.42...<br>
> ><br>
> > That's a *very* nice connection to the GRACE experiment =E2=80=93 =
> utterly appropriate, whether TRP had it in mind or not.<br>
> ><br>
> > A few more:<br>
> ><br>
> > >From my segment coming up -- Merle in the herbal trade with "=
> the silent women up in the foothills": "They lived for different =
> futures, but they were each other's unrecognized halves, and what fasci=
> nation between them did come to pass was lit up, beyond question, with grac=
> e." (70)<br>
> ><br>
> > Reef trying to scale the towers in Jeshimon: "His attempts soon g=
> athered an audience, mostly of children, from whom ordinarily he would have=
> drawn grace, but his amiability had deserted him." (215)<br>
> ><br>
> > Lake and Deuce in their wedding chapel: "Though scarcely any musi=
> c ever came this way, the stray mouth-harpist or whistling drifter who did =
> pass through the crooked doors found himself elevated into more grace than =
> the acoustics of his way would have granted him so far." (236)<br>
> ><br>
> > Dally returns to Chicago: "Somewhere in her head, she'd had t=
> his notion that because the White City had once existed beside the Lake, in=
> Jackson Park, it would have acted somehow like yeast in bread and caused t=
> he entire city to bloom into some kind of grace." (336)<br>
> ><br>
> > TRP practically kicks us in the shin with subteen chanteuse Angela (ak=
> a Angel o') Grace (399-401)<br>
> ><br>
> > Tace on Lake's half-formed hope of changing Deuce: "You think=
> he's so good," Tace went on, "just a boy that's lost, th=
> at it? and you can bring him back, all you need to do's love him enough=
> , love your enemy into some kind of redeeming grace for the both of you? Ap=
> plesauce, young lady." (482-483)<br>
> ><br>
> > Quaternioneers out of favor: "Having been inseparable from the ri=
> se of the electromagnetic in human affairs, the Hamiltonian devotees had no=
> w, fallen from grace, come to embody, for the established scientific religi=
> on, a subversive, indeed heretical, faith for whom proscription and exile w=
> ere too good." (526)<br>
> ><br>
> > Lew on his way to investigate the Gas cult: "The first pale husba=
> nds of the evening stood waiting for suburban trains never meant to arrive =
> at any destination on the rail map-as if, to be brought to any shelter this=
> night, one would first have to step across into some region of grace hithe=
> rto undefined." (609)<br>
> ><br>
> > That last one is *so* reminiscent of all the unmapped routes we came t=
> o know in the Zone.<br>
> ><br>
> > Anyway, the G-word keeps popping up all along. I know I can be repetit=
> ive ("monomaniac"..? WHO SAID THAT?!) about the schemes of sin an=
> d preterition and just-maybe-redemption in all the books. I'm not even =
> a Christian myself. But dammit (so to speak), he's been tugging at our =
> sleeves about it ever since Christmas Eve 1955 on old East Main...<br>
> ><br>
> > "Profane had figured at first that he was only the disembodied ob=
> ject of a corporal work of mercy. That, in the company of innumerable small=
> and wounded animals, bums on the street, near-dying and lost to God, he wa=
> s only another means to grace or indulgence for Fina..." (V p. 134 (Ha=
> rper))<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > On Sat, Aug 5, 2017 at 9:54 AM, Mark Kohut <<a href=3D"mailto:mark.=
> kohut at gmail.com">mark.kohut at gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> > Yeahp. When Lew experiences Grace, immediately after that explosion, a=
> s if it sorta caused it almost, the narrator tells us this.<br>
> ><br>
> > Which--Jochen reminding us of Hemingway's "grace under pressu=
> re" line---hit me for the first time as another possible level of allu=
> sive 'ambiguity': a little Hemingway joke.<br>
> ><br>
> > On Sat, Aug 5, 2017 at 9:47 AM, Becky Lindroos <<a href=3D"mailto:b=
> ekah0176 at sbcglobal.net">bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net</a>> wrote:<br>
> > There=E2=80=99s a difference, sometimes huge but sometimes tiny, betwe=
> en caring about what an author=E2=80=99s views or ideas are and those of hi=
> s narrator.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I think we do have to care about what all the narra=
> tor here means his use of the word =E2=80=9Cgrace=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 because it=
> =E2=80=99s a fair part of the book and it=E2=80=99s an important word.=C2=
> =A0 =C2=A0Pynchon may or may not be having his narrator use it in complete =
> accord with what he sits down seriously and consciously believes himself.<b=
> r>
> ><br>
> > So going into Pynchon=E2=80=99s background can be misleading but payin=
> g absolute attention to the context of the use in the narrator sections is =
> vital.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Close reading time.<br>
> ><br>
> > Becky<br>
> > <a href=3D"https://beckylindroos.wordpress.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" tar=
> get=3D"_blank">https://beckylindroos.<wbr>wordpress.com</a><br>
> ><br>
> > > On Aug 5, 2017, at 6:48 AM, David Morris <<a href=3D"mailto:fq=
> morris at gmail.com">fqmorris at gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> > ><br>
> > > I=C2=A0 *really* don't care about what religion Pynchon was o=
> r is.=C2=A0 I prefer to read his works without him intruding.=C2=A0 His ave=
> rsion to interviews indicates he feels the same way.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > David Morris<br>
> > ><br>
> > > On Sat, Aug 5, 2017 at 3:47 AM Mark Kohut <<a href=3D"mailto:m=
> ark.kohut at gmail.com">mark.kohut at gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> > > Slothrop is, at least, an anti-Puritan.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Sent from my iPad<br>
> > ><br>
> > > > On Aug 4, 2017, at 11:12 PM, Joseph Tracy <<a href=3D"mai=
> lto:brook7 at sover.net">brook7 at sover.net</a>> wrote:<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 My intention was to bring =
> some background to the word and its religious roots and changing use .=C2=
> =A0 It is my sense that P has deep historic knowledge of such core words an=
> d concepts and this is one of the few areas where I have some knowledge and=
> research to draw on=C2=A0 myself because of my own history.=C2=A0 As far a=
> s Pynchon=E2=80=99s beliefs, I wonder if we know that much. It is my memory=
> that he expressed interested in Catholicism as a university student, but I=
> have never heard anything to indicate=C2=A0 that this interest/faith conti=
> nued through his life or writing career. Do you have something that support=
> s the idea that he remained a Catholic?=C2=A0 =C2=A0He shapes some pretty i=
> ntense satiric fables pointed at Catholicism and Puritanism in V and GR.=C2=
> =A0 The chums of chance have Christian overtones.<br>
> > > >> On Aug 4, 2017, at 8:05 PM, Mark Kohut <<a href=3D"ma=
> ilto:mark.kohut at gmail.com">mark.kohut at gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> > > >><br>
> > > >> All interesting, of course.<br>
> > > >><br>
> > > >> But Pynchon is Catholic, not Protestant, not Calvinist.<=
> br>
> > > >><br>
> > > >> "Puritan" perhaps, as America is/was in his fo=
> rmative years and beyond, and before-- as many have written about.=C2=A0 Ro=
> th, The Last Puritan or THE PURITAN MIND, Larzer Ziff for examples, Ziff wh=
> o tries to subtilize all the paradoxes and their hidden places in America a=
> nd our minds.<br>
> > > >><br>
> > > >> In Weber, Catholic Spain was a Spirit of Capitalism fail=
> ure, just misc.<br>
> > > >><br>
> > > >> Sent from my iPad<br>
> > > >><br>
> > > >>> On Aug 4, 2017, at 3:36 PM, Joseph Tracy <<a href=
> =3D"mailto:brook7 at sover.net">brook7 at sover.net</a>> wrote:<br>
> > > >>><br>
> > > >>> The earliest appearance in the scriptures of the wor=
> d has the usage of favor: Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. This us=
> e appears several times in Genesis and though some say it means mercy it se=
> ems to more specifically mean favor.( hence disgraced means shamed/lost fro=
> m favor) So there is a Hebrew word( chen)meaning favor that is used=C2=A0 f=
> requently in the Torah and is taken up in the new testament<br>
> > > >>> by both the gospel writer of the book of John ( the =
> law came by Moses, but grace and truth through Jesus)=C2=A0 and by Paul, wh=
> o dominates theological interpretation of the life of Jesus( whom he never =
> met, and appeared to know little of his=C2=A0 teachings as presented in the=
> Gospels) .=C2=A0 Paul was multi lingual as a preacher to Greeks, Syrians, =
> Romans and was steeped in Hebrew, the scriptures,Phariseeism and probably A=
> ramaic. It seems likely that he was taking the core concept and word from G=
> enesis and giving it a particularly Christian mystical spin. Paul is the so=
> urce of the concept of predetermination of the destiny of the individual to=
> be either saved or lost.=C2=A0 That concept was challenged at the time by =
> James, the brother of Jesus and leader of the early church in Jerusalem who=
> did not care for Paul=E2=80=99s teachings, but again Paul dominates the ch=
> urches interpretation=C2=A0 especially among the Protestants. For many prot=
> estants grace became the dividing line between salvation and damnation with=
> this idea being most clearly enunciated by Calvin. The Puritans were Calvi=
> nists and P=E2=80=99s personal lineage though with an heretical streak..<br=
> > > >>><br>
> > > >>> I agree with David Morris that despite this weighty =
> background, Pynchon plays with the linguistic nuances that the word( grace =
> of a dancer, graceful exit, graciuos host)=C2=A0 has acquired including let=
> ting=C2=A0 the Puritan heritage play out its role among the characters he c=
> reates. One must be careful to not overly connect the language of a pyncho =
> character with his own beliefs or language.<br>
> > > >>><br>
> > > >>> Luther and Calvin derive their concept of grace, Lut=
> her as a function of loving parental abundance and the" finished work =
> of Christ =E2=80=9C and Calvin more mechanistically as a kind of prearrange=
> d divine mathematics, from Paul.<br>
> > > >>><br>
> > > >>> I spent a lot of years with the Bible and came away =
> with some knowledge but little love for its sway in human affairs or my own=
> life. The Pauine concept of grace and its theological explication seems di=
> seased to me, a way of giving up agency and justifying powerful bullies. I =
> personally use the word only when it is clear I am talking about elegant fl=
> ow in art or physical movement. That human experience of the transcendent i=
> ncludes mercy and the renewal that mercy brings seems natural and does not=
> =C2=A0 require a lot of theological pyrotechnics.=C2=A0 We don=E2=80=99t ne=
> ed to spend our lives going back and forth on the same bus going one way th=
> en the other. Just get off the bus and live.<br>
> > > >>><br>
> > > >>> I see Pynchon as a humane satirist, a chronicler of =
> alternative history from an outsider perspective, and wildly liberated spin=
> ner of 3 dimensional stories that include mythos, conspracy theory,=C2=A0 c=
> olorful but credible fiction, and historic events in fairly equal measure.<=
> br>
> > > >>><br>
> > > >>><br>
> > > >>>> On Jul 29, 2017, at 3:28 PM, Jochen Stremmel &lt=
> ;<a href=3D"mailto:jstremmel at gmail.com">jstremmel at gmail.com</a>> wrote:<=
> br>
> > > >>>><br>
> > > >>>> You are the native speaker, Mark, but I would sa=
> y it's bullshit if you don't provide context. What kind of grace? Y=
> ou have disgrace, you have clumsiness, I'm sure you have more opposites=
> of grace.<br>
> > > >>>><br>
> > > >>>> 2017-07-29 21:11 GMT+02:00 Erik T. Burns <<a =
> href=3D"mailto:eburns at gmail.com">eburns at gmail.com</a>>:<br>
> > > >>>> I suggest "trump"<br>
> > > >>>> From: Mark Kohut<br>
> > > >>>> Sent: =E2=80=8E7/=E2=80=8E29/=E2=80=8E2017 20:06=
> <br>
> > > >>>> To: pynchon -l<br>
> > > >>>> Subject: Grace again. Misc.<br>
> > > >>>><br>
> > > >>>> Gracelessness is an absence of grace, but the En=
> glish language lacks a word for the opposite of grace.--Cass Sunstein, very=
> recent essay.<br>
> > > >>><br>
> > > >>> -<br>
> > > >>> Pynchon-l / <a href=3D"http://www.waste.org/mail/?li=
> st=3Dpynchon-l" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.waste.org/m=
> ail/?<wbr>list=3Dpynchon-l</a><br>
> > > >> -<br>
> > > >> Pynchon-l / <a href=3D"http://www.waste.org/mail/?list" =
> rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.waste.org/mail/?<wbr>list</=
> a><br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > -<br>
> > > > Pynchon-l / <a href=3D"http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=3Dpyn=
> chon-l" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.waste.org/mail/?<wb=
> r>list=3Dpynchon-l</a><br>
> > > -<br>
> > > Pynchon-l / <a href=3D"http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l" =
> rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.waste.org/mail/?<wbr>listpy=
> nchon-l</a><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> <br>
> -<br>
> Pynchon-l / <a href=3D"http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l" rel=3D"nor=
> eferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.waste.org/mail/?<wbr>listpynchon-l</a=
>> <br>
> </div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
> 
> --94eb2c199f2094de910556131dc6--
> 
> -
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: 
> From: 
> Subject: [none]
> 
> - --94eb2c194d5c6ac9790556138bd5
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> This reminds me of a Pynchon story not overtold here or anywhere that I am
> aware of. Which is why it feels uncertain to me now. I somehow learned it
> long before I learned of this listserve and the resources of the web for
> reading about Pynchon. I see myself in a library, probably NYC or Jersey
> City public.
> 
> Somebody--my shaped memory says he was a Navy doctor,-- someone who got to
> check out new sailors. He wrote of seeing TRP's Naval test scores....and
> not quite believing in some of them, they were very high--it is surely
> fanboy memory that remembers "highest"--but what surprised him most were
> they were so uniformly high---maths (as the English write it) and
> English...he could see that TRP had been an engineering major before
> entering the Navy, and few correlated so high in language as well....I
> think I remember him writing
> it was not just high vocabulary and exact grammar it was the rhythm and
> natural lyricism in the prose answers that stood out to him, to tie in with
> Morris's good quote.
> 
> Now, intrigued, ---and allow for false exact memory from me--I remember I
> think that he, too, was a Cornell guy, or anyway, had contacts there he
> called about this new sailor....
> Somebody did find records then and he learned that despite his engineering
> major, TRP had on record that his desire was, and had been since he was
> young, to be a writer.
> He was as far as this doc was concerned. And to tie in with the V Woolf
> quote, "this is very profound, what rhythm is..creates this wave in the
> mind".
> 
> I would appreciate learning, as in some story or other I once read, that I
> have pretty much made this up from some small detail(s).
> OR, how a fanboy projects.
> 
> 
> PS. Didja know that V. Woolf herself was slow to talk as a toddler?
> Compared to her precociously talkative, slightly older sister? Who became
> the visual artist..
> V's parents were worried she was "slow".....a good biographer has suggested
> her talkative sister dominated her expressiveness at first......since it
> was later reported
> by her parents that Virginia was now arguing back a lot against her
> sister.....
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sat, Aug 5, 2017 at 3:53 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Words:
>> 
>> Virginia Woolf in a letter to Vita Sackville-West: "Style is a very simple
>> matter; it is all rhythm. Once you get that, you can't use the wrong
>> words... Now this is very profound, what rhythm is, and goes far deeper
>> than words. A sight, an emotion, creates this wave in the mind, long before
>> it makes words to fit it; and in writing (such is my present belief) one
>> has to recapture this, and set this working (Which has nothing apparently
>> to do with words) and then, as it breaks and tumbles in the mind, it makes
>> words to fit it."
> 
> --94eb2c194d5c6ac9790556138bd5
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> 
> <div dir=3D"ltr">This reminds me of a Pynchon story not overtold here or an=
> ywhere that I am aware of. Which is why it feels uncertain to me now. I som=
> ehow learned it long before I learned of this listserve and the resources o=
> f the web for<div>reading about Pynchon. I see myself in a library, probabl=
> y NYC or Jersey City public.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Somebody--my sh=
> aped memory says he was a Navy doctor,-- someone who got to check out new s=
> ailors. He wrote of seeing TRP's Naval test scores....and not quite bel=
> ieving in some of them, they were very high--it is surely fanboy memory tha=
> t remembers "highest"--but what surprised him most were they were=
> so uniformly high---maths (as the English write it) and English...he could=
> see that TRP had been an engineering major before entering the Navy, and f=
> ew correlated so high in language as well....I think I remember him writing=
> </div><div>it was not just high vocabulary and exact grammar it was the rhy=
> thm and natural lyricism in the prose answers that stood out to him, to tie=
> in with Morris's good quote.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Now, intri=
> gued, ---and allow for false exact memory from me--I remember I think that =
> he, too, was a Cornell guy, or anyway, had contacts there he called about t=
> his new sailor....</div><div>Somebody did find records then and he learned =
> that despite his engineering major, TRP had on record that his desire was, =
> and had been since he was young, to be a writer.=C2=A0</div><div>He was as =
> far as this doc was concerned. And to tie in with the V Woolf quote, "=
> this is very profound, what rhythm is..creates this wave in the mind".=
> =C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>I would appreciate learning, as in some sto=
> ry or other I once read, that I have pretty much made this up from some sma=
> ll detail(s).=C2=A0</div><div>OR, how a fanboy projects.=C2=A0</div><div><b=
> r></div><div><br></div><div>PS. Didja know that V. Woolf herself was slow t=
> o talk as a toddler? Compared to her precociously talkative, slightly older=
> sister? Who became the visual artist..</div><div>V's parents were worr=
> ied she was "slow".....a good biographer has suggested her talkat=
> ive sister dominated her expressiveness at first......since it was later re=
> ported</div><div>by her parents that Virginia was now arguing back a lot ag=
> ainst her sister.....</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div class=
> =3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Aug 5, 2017 at 3:53=
> PM, David Morris <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:fqmorris at gmail.co=
> m" target=3D"_blank">fqmorris at gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquot=
> e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc sol=
> id;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">Words:</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></=
> div><div dir=3D"auto">Virginia Woolf in a letter to Vita Sackville-West: &q=
> uot;Style is a very simple matter; it is all rhythm. Once you get that, you=
> can't use the wrong words... Now this is very profound, what rhythm is=
> , and goes far deeper than words. A sight, an emotion, creates this wave in=
> the mind, long before it makes words to fit it; and in writing (such is my=
> present belief) one has to recapture this, and set this working (Which has=
> nothing apparently to do with words) and then, as it breaks and tumbles in=
> the mind, it makes words to fit it."</div>
> </blockquote></div><br></div>
> 
> --94eb2c194d5c6ac9790556138bd5--
> -
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> End of pynchon-l-digest V2 #13640
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