pynchon-l-digest V2 #13640
bulb
bulb at vheissu.net
Sun Aug 6 09:19:18 CDT 2017
Sending messages in html or rtf is the cause. Sending in text format is the
solution.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pynchon-l at waste.org [mailto:owner-pynchon-l at waste.org] On Behalf
Of roycross
Sent: zondag 6 augustus 2017 13:13
To: pynchon-l at waste.org
Subject: Re: pynchon-l-digest V2 #13640
I love my Pynchon digest lurkingly, but why is the format - on my laptop, at
least - such a dog's dinner? Anyone know?
Roy
Sent from my iPad
> On 6 Aug 2017, at 11:53, pynchon-l-digest
<owner-pynchon-l-digest at waste.org> wrote:
>
>
> pynchon-l-digest Sunday, August 6 2017 Volume 02 : Number
13640
>
>
>
> [none]
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> Must just say I really like these mini-essays taking off from
> Pynchon's texts that you occasionally do, Joseph. I wish we all talked
> about the notions, themes, meanings of certain great books this way
> more often.The text and our minds merging, so to speak.
> Even, of course,
> what we may disagree with can become fruitful...like talk about real
> life...which Joseph never loses sight of in these riffs.
>
> To this I will only throw out my first thought.....after the last
> sum-up paragraph with the exhortation for a different kind of grace, I
> thought of the last words of ATD, "flying off toward grace" and, soon,
> WW2. Sad.
>
>
>
>> On Sat, Aug 5, 2017 at 2:05 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>>
>> Nice review.
>>
>> " He understood that things were exactly what they were.=E2=80=9D
>> Along w=
> ith this
>> zen like reflection there is a contrast playng out in ATD , between
>> Vibe=
> =E2=80=99s
>> ultra-clavinist version of grace : financial success, persecution of
>> heretics, co-option of talent( all things work together for good for
>> the those who love God =E2=80=A6, unmerited but evident in wealth and
>> power, =
> children
>> inheriting the kingdom, aligned with western civilization's western
>> movement, and alternately the version of grace that plays out with
>> Lew =
> B,
>> the Traverse family, Cyprian and the Chums. Lew freed from guilt of
>> unknown crime takes on job of seeing things as they are( thus aligned
>> wit=
> h
>> history of detectives , a recurrant structure in P=E2=80=99s
>> writing), T=
> he
>> Traverses seem destined to struggle with search for
>> love/truth/revolution and to be changed by that, Cyprian moves from
>> agent of empire to agent of revolution to contemplative from
>> hypersexuality to ascetic, the Chums( mythic fictional adventurers)
>> move from working blindly for some unknown force of good to becoming
>> self aware, asking questions, crossing boundaries , hooking up with
>> the feminine. Overall the movement of this non-Vibe grace is away
>> from empire, away from trusting some benign flow o=
> f
>> history, away from inherited authority and toward inner and personal
>> change, toward the humanizing and almost unaable to bear exploration
>> of freedom as lived experience.
>> Pynchon enjoins the necessity of this kind of movement by showing
>> the calamity of western civilization with its confidence in divine
>> grace, machine guns, experimental mathematics, electricity and oceans
>> of oil producing trench warfare. A different version of grace seems
called for.
>>
>>
>>> They belong more to the preterite than the elect.
>> Here I have to respectfully disagree but only half disagree. This
>> future where things are what they are is a future that belongs to
>> everyone, not in some falsely reassuring sense but a future made from
>> what is by who is=
> .
>> Preterite and elect are made evident as describing polarities no
>> longer applicable as useful maps of the terrain. The schlemiels of V
>> seem sadly =
> to
>> be little changed at the end of the novel, everyone a better
>> illustration of Dantes hell than his paradise. The chums may be made
>> up but they are i=
> n
>> fux and flying.
>>
>> In my own attempt to reconcile with the world as it is, what I
>> don=E2=80=
> =99t know
>> becomes larger, and what I know has to be approached more humbly. How
>> broadly this applies I don=E2=80=99t know.
>>> On Aug 5, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Monte Davis <montedavis49 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote=
> :
>>>
>>> Echoes:
>>>
>>> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 13:28:28 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
>>> From: kelber@[omitted]
>>> To: pynchon-l@[omitted]
>>> Subject: ATDTDA - grace
>>>
>>> TRP uses (and defines) the word "grace," on p.42. It's also the
>>> final
>> word of the novel. Not sure if there are other references in between.
>>>
>>> P. 42:
>>> "One mild and ordinary work-morning in Chicago, Lew happened to find
>> himself on a public conveyance, head and eyes inclined nowhere in
>> particular, when he entered, all too briefly, a condition he had no
>> memor=
> y
>> of having sought, which he later came to think of as grace." Next
>> paragraph: "He understood that things were exactly what they were.
>> It seemed more than he could bear."
>>>
>>> Right after this, he's hired by White City Investigations, after
>> impressing Nate with his ability to observe things (just as they are?).
>>>
>>> A couple of reviewers seemed to take the mention of grace at the end
>>> of
>> the book in its religious sense. The Inconvenience has become sort
>> of a public conveyance, the world in microcosm, and it flies toward
>> grace. Bu=
> t
>> if grace is understanding that things are exactly what they are, it
>> seems that TRP has something other than the religious connotation in
mind.
>> Things that are exactly what they are don't have any particular grace
>> of god bestowed on them. They belong more to the preterite than the
elect.
>>>
>>> On a totally different plane, maybe TRP had this in mind:
>>>
>>> "The goal of the Gravity Recovery And Climate Experiment (GRACE)
>>> space
>> mission is to obtain accurate global and high-resolution
>> determination of both the static and the time-variable components of
>> the Earth's gravity field."
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_Recovery_and_Climate_Experiment
>>>
>>> Laura
>>>
>>> *
>>> [my reply]
>>>> TRP uses (and defines) the word "grace" on p.42...
>>>
>>> That's a *very* nice connection to the GRACE experiment =E2=80=93
>>> utter=
> ly
>> appropriate, whether TRP had it in mind or not.
>>>
>>> A few more:
>>>
>>>> From my segment coming up -- Merle in the herbal trade with "the
>>>> silen=
> t
>> women up in the foothills": "They lived for different futures, but
>> they were each other's unrecognized halves, and what fascination
>> between them did come to pass was lit up, beyond question, with
>> grace." (70)
>>>
>>> Reef trying to scale the towers in Jeshimon: "His attempts soon
>>> gathere=
> d
>> an audience, mostly of children, from whom ordinarily he would have
>> drawn grace, but his amiability had deserted him." (215)
>>>
>>> Lake and Deuce in their wedding chapel: "Though scarcely any music
>>> ever
>> came this way, the stray mouth-harpist or whistling drifter who did
>> pass through the crooked doors found himself elevated into more grace
>> than the acoustics of his way would have granted him so far." (236)
>>>
>>> Dally returns to Chicago: "Somewhere in her head, she'd had this
>>> notion
>> that because the White City had once existed beside the Lake, in
>> Jackson Park, it would have acted somehow like yeast in bread and
>> caused the enti=
> re
>> city to bloom into some kind of grace." (336)
>>>
>>> TRP practically kicks us in the shin with subteen chanteuse Angela
>>> (aka
>> Angel o') Grace (399-401)
>>>
>>> Tace on Lake's half-formed hope of changing Deuce: "You think he's
>>> so
>> good," Tace went on, "just a boy that's lost, that it? and you can
>> bring him back, all you need to do's love him enough, love your enemy
>> into some kind of redeeming grace for the both of you? Applesauce, young
lady."
>> (482-483)
>>>
>>> Quaternioneers out of favor: "Having been inseparable from the rise
>>> of
>> the electromagnetic in human affairs, the Hamiltonian devotees had
>> now, fallen from grace, come to embody, for the established
>> scientific religio=
> n,
>> a subversive, indeed heretical, faith for whom proscription and exile
>> wer=
> e
>> too good." (526)
>>>
>>> Lew on his way to investigate the Gas cult: "The first pale husbands
>>> of
>> the evening stood waiting for suburban trains never meant to arrive
>> at an=
> y
>> destination on the rail map-as if, to be brought to any shelter this
>> nigh=
> t,
>> one would first have to step across into some region of grace
>> hitherto undefined." (609)
>>>
>>> That last one is *so* reminiscent of all the unmapped routes we came
>>> to
>> know in the Zone.
>>>
>>> Anyway, the G-word keeps popping up all along. I know I can be
>> repetitive ("monomaniac"..? WHO SAID THAT?!) about the schemes of sin
>> and preterition and just-maybe-redemption in all the books. I'm not
>> even a Christian myself. But dammit (so to speak), he's been tugging
>> at our sleeves about it ever since Christmas Eve 1955 on old East Main...
>>>
>>> "Profane had figured at first that he was only the disembodied
>>> object o=
> f
>> a corporal work of mercy. That, in the company of innumerable small
>> and wounded animals, bums on the street, near-dying and lost to God,
>> he was only another means to grace or indulgence for Fina..." (V p.
>> 134 (Harper)=
> )
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Aug 5, 2017 at 9:54 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>>> wrote=
> :
>>> Yeahp. When Lew experiences Grace, immediately after that explosion,
>>> as
>> if it sorta caused it almost, the narrator tells us this.
>>>
>>> Which--Jochen reminding us of Hemingway's "grace under pressure"
>> line---hit me for the first time as another possible level of
>> allusive
>> 'ambiguity': a little Hemingway joke.
>>>
>>> On Sat, Aug 5, 2017 at 9:47 AM, Becky Lindroos
>>> <bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net=
>>
>> wrote:
>>> There=E2=80=99s a difference, sometimes huge but sometimes tiny,
>>> betwee=
> n caring
>> about what an author=E2=80=99s views or ideas are and those of his
>> narrat=
> or. I
>> think we do have to care about what all the narrator here means his
>> use o=
> f
>> the word =E2=80=9Cgrace=E2=80=9D because it=E2=80=99s a fair part of
>> the=
> book and it=E2=80=99s an
>> important word. Pynchon may or may not be having his narrator use it in
>> complete accord with what he sits down seriously and consciously
>> believes himself.
>>>
>>> So going into Pynchon=E2=80=99s background can be misleading but
>>> paying=
> absolute
>> attention to the context of the use in the narrator sections is vital.
>> Close reading time.
>>>
>>> Becky
>>> https://beckylindroos.wordpress.com
>>>
>>>> On Aug 5, 2017, at 6:48 AM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I *really* don't care about what religion Pynchon was or is. I
>> prefer to read his works without him intruding. His aversion to
>> intervie=
> ws
>> indicates he feels the same way.
>>>>
>>>> David Morris
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Aug 5, 2017 at 3:47 AM Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>> Slothrop is, at least, an anti-Puritan.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>
>>>>> On Aug 4, 2017, at 11:12 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> My intention was to bring some background to the word and
>> its religious roots and changing use . It is my sense that P has
>> deep historic knowledge of such core words and concepts and this is
>> one of the few areas where I have some knowledge and research to draw
>> on myself because of my own history. As far as Pynchon=E2=80=99s
>> beliefs, I wonder=
> if we
>> know that much. It is my memory that he expressed interested in
>> Catholici=
> sm
>> as a university student, but I have never heard anything to indicate
>> tha=
> t
>> this interest/faith continued through his life or writing career. Do you
>> have something that supports the idea that he remained a Catholic? He
>> shapes some pretty intense satiric fables pointed at Catholicism and
>> Puritanism in V and GR. The chums of chance have Christian overtones.
>>>>>> On Aug 4, 2017, at 8:05 PM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All interesting, of course.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But Pynchon is Catholic, not Protestant, not Calvinist.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Puritan" perhaps, as America is/was in his formative years and
>> beyond, and before-- as many have written about. Roth, The Last
>> Puritan =
> or
>> THE PURITAN MIND, Larzer Ziff for examples, Ziff who tries to
>> subtilize a=
> ll
>> the paradoxes and their hidden places in America and our minds.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In Weber, Catholic Spain was a Spirit of Capitalism failure, just
>> misc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Aug 4, 2017, at 3:36 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
>>>>>>> wrote=
> :
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The earliest appearance in the scriptures of the word has the
>> usage of favor: Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. This use
>> appear=
> s
>> several times in Genesis and though some say it means mercy it seems
>> to more specifically mean favor.( hence disgraced means shamed/lost
>> from
>> favor) So there is a Hebrew word( chen)meaning favor that is used
>> frequently in the Torah and is taken up in the new testament
>>>>>>> by both the gospel writer of the book of John ( the law came by
>> Moses, but grace and truth through Jesus) and by Paul, who dominates
>> theological interpretation of the life of Jesus( whom he never met,
>> and appeared to know little of his teachings as presented in the
Gospels) .
>> Paul was multi lingual as a preacher to Greeks, Syrians, Romans and
>> was steeped in Hebrew, the scriptures,Phariseeism and probably
>> Aramaic. It seems likely that he was taking the core concept and word
>> from Genesis an=
> d
>> giving it a particularly Christian mystical spin. Paul is the source
>> of t=
> he
>> concept of predetermination of the destiny of the individual to be
>> either saved or lost. That concept was challenged at the time by
>> James, the brother of Jesus and leader of the early church in
>> Jerusalem who did not care for Paul=E2=80=99s teachings, but again
>> Paul dominates the churches interpretation especially among the
>> Protestants. For many protestants grace became the dividing line
>> between salvation and damnation with this idea being most clearly
>> enunciated by Calvin. The Puritans were Calvinist=
> s
>> and P=E2=80=99s personal lineage though with an heretical streak..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree with David Morris that despite this weighty background,
>> Pynchon plays with the linguistic nuances that the word( grace of a
>> dance=
> r,
>> graceful exit, graciuos host) has acquired including letting the
>> Purita=
> n
>> heritage play out its role among the characters he creates. One must
>> be careful to not overly connect the language of a pyncho character
>> with his own beliefs or language.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Luther and Calvin derive their concept of grace, Luther as a
>> function of loving parental abundance and the" finished work of
>> Christ =
> =E2=80=9C
>> and Calvin more mechanistically as a kind of prearranged divine
>> mathematics, from Paul.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I spent a lot of years with the Bible and came away with some
>> knowledge but little love for its sway in human affairs or my own
>> life. T=
> he
>> Pauine concept of grace and its theological explication seems
>> diseased to me, a way of giving up agency and justifying powerful
>> bullies. I personal=
> ly
>> use the word only when it is clear I am talking about elegant flow in
>> art or physical movement. That human experience of the transcendent
>> includes mercy and the renewal that mercy brings seems natural and
>> does not requi=
> re
>> a lot of theological pyrotechnics. We don=E2=80=99t need to spend
>> our li=
> ves going
>> back and forth on the same bus going one way then the other. Just get
>> off the bus and live.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I see Pynchon as a humane satirist, a chronicler of alternative
>> history from an outsider perspective, and wildly liberated spinner of
>> 3 dimensional stories that include mythos, conspracy theory,
>> colorful but credible fiction, and historic events in fairly equal
measure.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Jul 29, 2017, at 3:28 PM, Jochen Stremmel
>>>>>>>> <jstremmel at gmail.co=
> m>
>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You are the native speaker, Mark, but I would say it's bullshit
>> if you don't provide context. What kind of grace? You have disgrace,
>> you have clumsiness, I'm sure you have more opposites of grace.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2017-07-29 21:11 GMT+02:00 Erik T. Burns <eburns at gmail.com>:
>>>>>>>> I suggest "trump"
>>>>>>>> From: Mark Kohut
>>>>>>>> Sent: =E2=80=8E7/=E2=80=8E29/=E2=80=8E2017 20:06
>>>>>>>> To: pynchon -l
>>>>>>>> Subject: Grace again. Misc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gracelessness is an absence of grace, but the English language
>> lacks a word for the opposite of grace.--Cass Sunstein, very recent
>> essay=
> .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=3Dpynchon-l
>>>>>> -
>>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list
>>>>>
>>>>> -
>>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=3Dpynchon-l
>>>> -
>>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>>
>> -
>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>
> --94eb2c199f2094de910556131dc6
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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>
> <div dir=3D"ltr">Must just say I really like these mini-essays taking
> off f= rom Pynchon's texts that you occasionally do, Joseph.
> I<div>wish we all= talked about the notions, themes, meanings of
> certain great books this way= more often.The text and our minds
> merging, so to speak.=C2=A0</div><div>= =C2=A0Even, of
> course,</div><div>what we may disagree with can become fruit=
> ful...like talk about real life...which Joseph never loses sight of in
> thes= e riffs.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>To this I will only
> throw out my fi= rst thought.....after the last sum-up paragraph with
> the exhortation for a = different kind of grace,</div><div>I thought
> of the last words of ATD, &quo= t;flying off toward grace" and,
> soon, WW2. Sad.=C2=A0</div><div><br></=
> div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div
> div>class=3D"gmail=
> _quote">On Sat, Aug 5, 2017 at 2:05 PM, Joseph Tracy <span
> dir=3D"ltr"><= <a href=3D"mailto:brook7 at sover.net"
> target=3D"_blank">brook7 at sover.net</a>&=
> gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"
> style=3D"margin:0 0 =
> 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Nice review.<br>
> <br> " He understood that things were exactly what they
> were.=E2=80=9D Alon= g with this zen like reflection there is a
> contrast playng out in ATD , bet= ween Vibe=E2=80=99s=C2=A0
> ultra-clavinist version of grace :=C2=A0 financia= l success,
> persecution of heretics, co-option of talent( all things work to=
> gether for good for the those who love God =E2=80=A6, unmerited but
> evident= in wealth and power, children inheriting the kingdom,=C2=A0
> aligned with w= estern civilization's western movement, and
> alternately=C2=A0 the versi= on of grace that plays out=C2=A0 with Lew
> B, the Traverse family, Cyprian a= nd the Chums.=C2=A0 Lew freed from
> guilt of unknown crime takes on job of s= eeing things as they are(
> thus aligned with history of detectives , a recur= rant structure in
> P=E2=80=99s writing),=C2=A0 The Traverses seem destined t= o struggle
> with search for love/truth/revolution=C2=A0 and to be changed by=
> that, Cyprian moves from agent of empire to agent of revolution to
> contemp= lative from hypersexuality to ascetic,=C2=A0 the Chums(
> mythic fictional ad=
> venturers) move from working blindly for some unknown force of good to
> beco= ming self aware, asking questions,=C2=A0 crossing boundaries ,
> hooking up w= ith the feminine. Overall the movement of this non-Vibe
> grace is away from = empire, away from trusting some benign flow of
> history, away from inherited= authority and toward inner and personal
> change, toward the humanizing and = almost unaable to bear exploration
> of freedom as lived experience.<br>
> =C2=A0 Pynchon enjoins the necessity of this kind of movement by
> showing th= e calamity of western civilization with its confidence in
> divine grace, mac= hine guns, experimental mathematics, electricity
> and oceans of oil producin= g trench warfare. A different version of
> grace seems called for.<br> <span class=3D""><br> <br>
> >=C2=A0 They belong more to the preterite than the elect.<br>
> </span>Here I have to respectfully disagree but only half disagree.
> This fu=
> ture=C2=A0 where things are what they are=C2=A0 is a future that
> belongs to= everyone, not in some falsely reassuring sense but a
> future made from what= is by who is. Preterite and elect are made
> evident as describing polaritie= s no longer applicable as useful maps
> of the terrain. The schlemiels of V s= eem sadly to be little changed
> at the end of the novel, everyone a better i= llustration of Dantes
> hell than his paradise. The chums may be made up but = they are in fux
> and flying.<br> <br> =C2=A0In my own attempt to reconcile with the
> world as it is, what I don=E2= =80=99t know becomes larger, and what I
> know has to be approached more humb= ly. How broadly this applies I
> don=E2=80=99t know.<br> <div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">>
> On Aug 5, 2017, at 10:37 AM, M= onte Davis <<a
> href=3D"mailto:montedavis49 at gmail.com">montedavis49 at gmail=
> .com</a>> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > Echoes:<br>
> ><br>
> > Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 13:28:28 -0500 (GMT-05:00)<br> > From:
> kelber@[omitted]<br> > To: pynchon-l@[omitted]<br> > Subject:
> ATDTDA - grace<br> ><br> > TRP uses (and defines) the word
> "grace," on p.42.=C2=A0 It&#= 39;s also the final word of
> the novel.=C2=A0 Not sure if there are other re= ferences in
> between.<br> ><br> > P. 42:<br> > "One mild and ordinary
> work-morning in Chicago, Lew happened to f= ind himself on a public
> conveyance, head and eyes inclined nowhere in parti= cular, when he
> entered, all too briefly, a condition he had no memory of ha= ving
> sought, which he later came to think of as grace."=C2=A0 Next
> par=
> agraph:=C2=A0 "He understood that things were exactly what they
> were.=
> =C2=A0 It seemed more than he could bear."<br> ><br> >
> Right after this, he's hired by White City Investigations, after
> i= mpressing Nate with his ability to observe things (just as they
> are?).<br> ><br> > A couple of reviewers seemed to take the
> mention of grace at the end o= f the book in its religious
> sense.=C2=A0 The Inconvenience has become sort = of a public
> conveyance, the world in microcosm, and it flies toward grace.=
> =C2=A0 But if grace is understanding that things are exactly what they
> are,= it seems that TRP has something other than the religious
> connotation in mi=
> nd.=C2=A0 Things that are exactly what they are don't have any
> particul= ar grace of god bestowed on them.=C2=A0 They belong more to
> the preterite t= han the elect.<br> ><br> > On a totally
> different plane, maybe TRP had this in mind:<br> ><br> >
> "The goal of the Gravity Recovery And Climate Experiment (GRACE)
> = space mission is to obtain accurate global and high-resolution
> determinatio= n of both the static and the time-variable components of
> the Earth's gr= avity field."<br> ><br> > <a
> href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_Recovery_and_Climate_E=
> xperiment" rel=3D"noreferrer"
> target=3D"_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wik=
> i/<wbr>Gravity_Recovery_and_Climate_<wbr>Experiment</a><br>
> ><br>
> > Laura<br>
> ><br>
> > *<br>
> > [my reply]<br>
> > > TRP uses (and defines) the word "grace" on
> p.42...<br> ><br> > That's a *very* nice connection to the
> GRACE experiment =E2=80=93 = utterly appropriate, whether TRP had it
> in mind or not.<br> ><br> > A few more:<br> ><br> >
> >From my segment coming up -- Merle in the herbal trade with
> "= the silent women up in the foothills": "They lived
> for different = futures, but they were each other's unrecognized
> halves, and what fasci= nation between them did come to pass was lit
> up, beyond question, with grac= e." (70)<br> ><br> > Reef
> trying to scale the towers in Jeshimon: "His attempts soon g=
> athered an audience, mostly of children, from whom ordinarily he would
> have= drawn grace, but his amiability had deserted him."
> (215)<br> ><br> > Lake and Deuce in their wedding chapel:
> "Though scarcely any musi= c ever came this way, the stray
> mouth-harpist or whistling drifter who did = pass through the crooked
> doors found himself elevated into more grace than = the acoustics of
> his way would have granted him so far." (236)<br> ><br> >
> Dally returns to Chicago: "Somewhere in her head, she'd had
> t= his notion that because the White City had once existed beside the
> Lake, in= Jackson Park, it would have acted somehow like yeast in
> bread and caused t= he entire city to bloom into some kind of
> grace." (336)<br> ><br> > TRP practically kicks us in the
> shin with subteen chanteuse Angela (ak= a Angel o') Grace
> (399-401)<br> ><br> > Tace on Lake's half-formed hope of
> changing Deuce: "You think= he's so good," Tace went on,
> "just a boy that's lost, th= at it? and you can bring him
> back, all you need to do's love him enough= , love your enemy into
> some kind of redeeming grace for the both of you? Ap= plesauce, young
> lady." (482-483)<br> ><br> > Quaternioneers out of favor:
> "Having been inseparable from the ri= se of the electromagnetic
> in human affairs, the Hamiltonian devotees had no= w, fallen from
> grace, come to embody, for the established scientific religi= on, a
> subversive, indeed heretical, faith for whom proscription and exile w=
> ere too good." (526)<br> ><br> > Lew on his way to
> investigate the Gas cult: "The first pale husba= nds of the
> evening stood waiting for suburban trains never meant to arrive = at
> any destination on the rail map-as if, to be brought to any shelter
> this= night, one would first have to step across into some region of
> grace hithe= rto undefined." (609)<br> ><br> > That last
> one is *so* reminiscent of all the unmapped routes we came t= o know
> in the Zone.<br> ><br> > Anyway, the G-word keeps popping up all
> along. I know I can be repetit= ive ("monomaniac"..? WHO
> SAID THAT?!) about the schemes of sin an= d preterition and
> just-maybe-redemption in all the books. I'm not even = a Christian
> myself. But dammit (so to speak), he's been tugging at our =
> sleeves about it ever since Christmas Eve 1955 on old East Main...<br>
> ><br> > "Profane had figured at first that he was only the
> disembodied ob= ject of a corporal work of mercy. That, in the company
> of innumerable small= and wounded animals, bums on the street,
> near-dying and lost to God, he wa= s only another means to grace or
> indulgence for Fina..." (V p. 134 (Ha= rper))<br> ><br>
> ><br> ><br> > On Sat, Aug 5, 2017 at 9:54 AM, Mark Kohut
> <<a href=3D"mailto:mark.=
> kohut at gmail.com">mark.kohut at gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br> > Yeahp.
> When Lew experiences Grace, immediately after that explosion, a= s if
> it sorta caused it almost, the narrator tells us this.<br> ><br>
> > Which--Jochen reminding us of Hemingway's "grace under
> pressu= re" line---hit me for the first time as another possible
> level of allu= sive 'ambiguity': a little Hemingway joke.<br>
> ><br> > On Sat, Aug 5, 2017 at 9:47 AM, Becky Lindroos <<a
> href=3D"mailto:b=
> ekah0176 at sbcglobal.net">bekah0176 at sbcglobal.net</a>> wrote:<br>
> > There=E2=80=99s a difference, sometimes huge but sometimes tiny,
> betwe= en caring about what an author=E2=80=99s views or ideas are and
> those of hi= s narrator.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I think we do have to care about
> what all the narra= tor here means his use of the word
> =E2=80=9Cgrace=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 because it= =E2=80=99s a fair part of
> the book and it=E2=80=99s an important word.=C2=
> =A0 =C2=A0Pynchon may or may not be having his narrator use it in
> complete = accord with what he sits down seriously and consciously
> believes himself.<b=
> r>
> ><br>
> > So going into Pynchon=E2=80=99s background can be misleading but
> payin= g absolute attention to the context of the use in the narrator
> sections is =
> vital.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Close reading time.<br> ><br> > Becky<br>
> > <a href=3D"https://beckylindroos.wordpress.com"
> rel=3D"noreferrer" tar=
> get=3D"_blank">https://beckylindroos.<wbr>wordpress.com</a><br>
> ><br>
> > > On Aug 5, 2017, at 6:48 AM, David Morris <<a
> href=3D"mailto:fq= morris at gmail.com">fqmorris at gmail.com</a>>
> wrote:<br> > ><br> > > I=C2=A0 *really* don't care
> about what religion Pynchon was o= r is.=C2=A0 I prefer to read his
> works without him intruding.=C2=A0 His ave= rsion to interviews
> indicates he feels the same way.<br> > ><br> > > David
> Morris<br> > ><br> > > On Sat, Aug 5, 2017 at 3:47 AM Mark
> Kohut <<a href=3D"mailto:m=
> ark.kohut at gmail.com">mark.kohut at gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br> > >
> Slothrop is, at least, an anti-Puritan.<br> > ><br> > >
> Sent from my iPad<br> > ><br> > > > On Aug 4, 2017, at
> 11:12 PM, Joseph Tracy <<a href=3D"mai=
> lto:brook7 at sover.net">brook7 at sover.net</a>> wrote:<br> > >
> ><br> > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 My intention
> was to bring = some background to the word and its religious roots and
> changing use .=C2=
> =A0 It is my sense that P has deep historic knowledge of such core
> words an= d concepts and this is one of the few areas where I have
> some knowledge and= research to draw on=C2=A0 myself because of my own
> history.=C2=A0 As far a= s Pynchon=E2=80=99s beliefs, I wonder if we
> know that much. It is my memory= that he expressed interested in
> Catholicism as a university student, but I= have never heard anything
> to indicate=C2=A0 that this interest/faith conti= nued through his
> life or writing career. Do you have something that support= s the idea
> that he remained a Catholic?=C2=A0 =C2=A0He shapes some pretty i=
> ntense satiric fables pointed at Catholicism and Puritanism in V and
> GR.=C2=
> =A0 The chums of chance have Christian overtones.<br> > >
> >> On Aug 4, 2017, at 8:05 PM, Mark Kohut <<a href=3D"ma=
> ilto:mark.kohut at gmail.com">mark.kohut at gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> > > >><br> > > >> All interesting, of
> course.<br> > > >><br> > > >> But Pynchon is
> Catholic, not Protestant, not Calvinist.<=
> br>
> > > >><br>
> > > >> "Puritan" perhaps, as America is/was in
> his fo= rmative years and beyond, and before-- as many have written
> about.=C2=A0 Ro= th, The Last Puritan or THE PURITAN MIND, Larzer Ziff
> for examples, Ziff wh= o tries to subtilize all the paradoxes and
> their hidden places in America a= nd our minds.<br> > >
> >><br> > > >> In Weber, Catholic Spain was a Spirit
> of Capitalism fail= ure, just misc.<br> > > >><br> >
> > >> Sent from my iPad<br> > > >><br> > >
> >>> On Aug 4, 2017, at 3:36 PM, Joseph Tracy <<a href=
> =3D"mailto:brook7 at sover.net">brook7 at sover.net</a>> wrote:<br> >
> > >>><br> > > >>> The earliest appearance
> in the scriptures of the wor= d has the usage of favor: Noah found
> grace in the eyes of the Lord. This us= e appears several times in
> Genesis and though some say it means mercy it se= ems to more
> specifically mean favor.( hence disgraced means shamed/lost fro= m
> favor) So there is a Hebrew word( chen)meaning favor that is
> used=C2=A0 f= requently in the Torah and is taken up in the new
> testament<br> > > >>> by both the gospel writer of the
> book of John ( the = law came by Moses, but grace and truth through
> Jesus)=C2=A0 and by Paul, wh= o dominates theological interpretation
> of the life of Jesus( whom he never = met, and appeared to know little
> of his=C2=A0 teachings as presented in the=
> Gospels) .=C2=A0 Paul was multi lingual as a preacher to Greeks,
> Syrians, = Romans and was steeped in Hebrew, the
> scriptures,Phariseeism and probably A= ramaic. It seems likely that he
> was taking the core concept and word from G= enesis and giving it a
> particularly Christian mystical spin. Paul is the so= urce of the
> concept of predetermination of the destiny of the individual to= be
> either saved or lost.=C2=A0 That concept was challenged at the time by
> = James, the brother of Jesus and leader of the early church in
> Jerusalem who= did not care for Paul=E2=80=99s teachings, but again
> Paul dominates the ch= urches interpretation=C2=A0 especially among
> the Protestants. For many prot= estants grace became the dividing line
> between salvation and damnation with= this idea being most clearly
> enunciated by Calvin. The Puritans were Calvi= nists and P=E2=80=99s
> personal lineage though with an heretical streak..<br= > >
> >>><br> > > >>> I agree with David Morris that
> despite this weighty = background, Pynchon plays with the linguistic
> nuances that the word( grace = of a dancer, graceful exit, graciuos
> host)=C2=A0 has acquired including let=
> ting=C2=A0 the Puritan heritage play out its role among the characters
> he c= reates. One must be careful to not overly connect the language
> of a pyncho = character with his own beliefs or language.<br> >
> > >>><br> > > >>> Luther and Calvin derive
> their concept of grace, Lut= her as a function of loving parental
> abundance and the" finished work = of Christ =E2=80=9C and Calvin
> more mechanistically as a kind of prearrange= d divine mathematics,
> from Paul.<br> > > >>><br> > > >>> I
> spent a lot of years with the Bible and came away = with some
> knowledge but little love for its sway in human affairs or my own=
> life. The Pauine concept of grace and its theological explication
> seems di= seased to me, a way of giving up agency and justifying
> powerful bullies. I = personally use the word only when it is clear I
> am talking about elegant fl= ow in art or physical movement. That
> human experience of the transcendent i= ncludes mercy and the renewal
> that mercy brings seems natural and does not=
> =C2=A0 require a lot of theological pyrotechnics.=C2=A0 We
> don=E2=80=99t ne= ed to spend our lives going back and forth on the
> same bus going one way th= en the other. Just get off the bus and
> live.<br> > > >>><br> > > >>> I see
> Pynchon as a humane satirist, a chronicler of = alternative history
> from an outsider perspective, and wildly liberated spin= ner of 3
> dimensional stories that include mythos, conspracy theory,=C2=A0 c=
> olorful but credible fiction, and historic events in fairly equal
> measure.<=
> br>
> > > >>><br>
> > > >>><br>
> > > >>>> On Jul 29, 2017, at 3:28 PM, Jochen
> Stremmel <= ;<a
> href=3D"mailto:jstremmel at gmail.com">jstremmel at gmail.com</a>>
> wrote:<=
> br>
> > > >>>><br>
> > > >>>> You are the native speaker, Mark, but I
> would sa= y it's bullshit if you don't provide context. What
> kind of grace? Y= ou have disgrace, you have clumsiness, I'm sure
> you have more opposites= of grace.<br> > > >>>><br>
> > > >>>> 2017-07-29 21:11 GMT+02:00 Erik T. Burns
> <<a =
> href=3D"mailto:eburns at gmail.com">eburns at gmail.com</a>>:<br>
> > > >>>> I suggest "trump"<br> > >
> >>>> From: Mark Kohut<br> > > >>>> Sent:
> =E2=80=8E7/=E2=80=8E29/=E2=80=8E2017 20:06= <br> > >
> >>>> To: pynchon -l<br> > > >>>>
> Subject: Grace again. Misc.<br> > > >>>><br> >
> > >>>> Gracelessness is an absence of grace, but the
> En= glish language lacks a word for the opposite of grace.--Cass
> Sunstein, very= recent essay.<br> > > >>><br> > >
> >>> -<br> > > >>> Pynchon-l / <a
> href=3D"http://www.waste.org/mail/?li=
> st=3Dpynchon-l" rel=3D"noreferrer"
> target=3D"_blank">http://www.waste.org/m=
> ail/?<wbr>list=3Dpynchon-l</a><br>
> > > >> -<br>
> > > >> Pynchon-l / <a
> href=3D"http://www.waste.org/mail/?list" = rel=3D"noreferrer"
> target=3D"_blank">http://www.waste.org/mail/?<wbr>list</=
> a><br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > -<br>
> > > > Pynchon-l / <a
> href=3D"http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=3Dpyn=
> chon-l" rel=3D"noreferrer"
> target=3D"_blank">http://www.waste.org/mail/?<wb=
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> > > -<br>
> > > Pynchon-l / <a
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> target=3D"_blank">http://www.waste.org/mail/?<wbr>listpy=
> nchon-l</a><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> <br>
> -<br>
> Pynchon-l / <a href=3D"http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l"
> rel=3D"nor= eferrer"
> target=3D"_blank">http://www.waste.org/mail/?<wbr>listpynchon-l</a=
>> <br>
> </div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
>
> --94eb2c199f2094de910556131dc6--
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date:
> From:
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>
> - --94eb2c194d5c6ac9790556138bd5
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>
> This reminds me of a Pynchon story not overtold here or anywhere that
> I am aware of. Which is why it feels uncertain to me now. I somehow
> learned it long before I learned of this listserve and the resources
> of the web for reading about Pynchon. I see myself in a library,
> probably NYC or Jersey City public.
>
> Somebody--my shaped memory says he was a Navy doctor,-- someone who
> got to check out new sailors. He wrote of seeing TRP's Naval test
> scores....and not quite believing in some of them, they were very
> high--it is surely fanboy memory that remembers "highest"--but what
> surprised him most were they were so uniformly high---maths (as the
> English write it) and English...he could see that TRP had been an
> engineering major before entering the Navy, and few correlated so high
> in language as well....I think I remember him writing it was not just
> high vocabulary and exact grammar it was the rhythm and natural
> lyricism in the prose answers that stood out to him, to tie in with
> Morris's good quote.
>
> Now, intrigued, ---and allow for false exact memory from me--I
> remember I think that he, too, was a Cornell guy, or anyway, had
> contacts there he called about this new sailor....
> Somebody did find records then and he learned that despite his
> engineering major, TRP had on record that his desire was, and had been
> since he was young, to be a writer.
> He was as far as this doc was concerned. And to tie in with the V
> Woolf quote, "this is very profound, what rhythm is..creates this wave
> in the mind".
>
> I would appreciate learning, as in some story or other I once read,
> that I have pretty much made this up from some small detail(s).
> OR, how a fanboy projects.
>
>
> PS. Didja know that V. Woolf herself was slow to talk as a toddler?
> Compared to her precociously talkative, slightly older sister? Who
> became the visual artist..
> V's parents were worried she was "slow".....a good biographer has
> suggested her talkative sister dominated her expressiveness at
> first......since it was later reported by her parents that Virginia
> was now arguing back a lot against her sister.....
>
>
>
>> On Sat, Aug 5, 2017 at 3:53 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Words:
>>
>> Virginia Woolf in a letter to Vita Sackville-West: "Style is a very
>> simple matter; it is all rhythm. Once you get that, you can't use the
>> wrong words... Now this is very profound, what rhythm is, and goes
>> far deeper than words. A sight, an emotion, creates this wave in the
>> mind, long before it makes words to fit it; and in writing (such is
>> my present belief) one has to recapture this, and set this working
>> (Which has nothing apparently to do with words) and then, as it
>> breaks and tumbles in the mind, it makes words to fit it."
>
> --94eb2c194d5c6ac9790556138bd5
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <div dir=3D"ltr">This reminds me of a Pynchon story not overtold here
> or an= ywhere that I am aware of. Which is why it feels uncertain to
> me now. I som= ehow learned it long before I learned of this listserve
> and the resources o= f the web for<div>reading about Pynchon. I see
> myself in a library, probabl= y NYC or Jersey City
> public.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Somebody--my sh= aped memory
> says he was a Navy doctor,-- someone who got to check out new s=
> ailors. He wrote of seeing TRP's Naval test scores....and not
> quite bel= ieving in some of them, they were very high--it is surely
> fanboy memory tha= t remembers "highest"--but what surprised
> him most were they were= so uniformly high---maths (as the English
> write it) and English...he could= see that TRP had been an engineering
> major before entering the Navy, and f= ew correlated so high in
> language as well....I think I remember him writing= </div><div>it was
> not just high vocabulary and exact grammar it was the rhy= thm and
> natural lyricism in the prose answers that stood out to him, to tie=
> in with Morris's good quote.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Now,
> intri= gued, ---and allow for false exact memory from me--I remember I
> think that = he, too, was a Cornell guy, or anyway, had contacts there
> he called about t= his new sailor....</div><div>Somebody did find
> records then and he learned = that despite his engineering major, TRP
> had on record that his desire was, = and had been since he was young,
> to be a writer.=C2=A0</div><div>He was as = far as this doc was
> concerned. And to tie in with the V Woolf quote, "= this is very
> profound, what rhythm is..creates this wave in the mind".=
> =C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>I would appreciate learning, as in
> some sto= ry or other I once read, that I have pretty much made this
> up from some sma= ll detail(s).=C2=A0</div><div>OR, how a fanboy
> projects.=C2=A0</div><div><b=
> r></div><div><br></div><div>PS. Didja know that V. Woolf herself was
> r>slow t=
> o talk as a toddler? Compared to her precociously talkative, slightly
> older= sister? Who became the visual artist..</div><div>V's
> parents were worr= ied she was "slow".....a good biographer
> has suggested her talkat= ive sister dominated her expressiveness at
> first......since it was later re= ported</div><div>by her parents that
> Virginia was now arguing back a lot ag= ainst her
> sister.....</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div class=
> =3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Aug 5, 2017 at
> 3:53= PM, David Morris <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a
> href=3D"mailto:fqmorris at gmail.co= m"
> target=3D"_blank">fqmorris at gmail.com</a>></span>
> wrote:<br><blockquot= e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
> .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc sol= id;padding-left:1ex"><div
> dir=3D"auto">Words:</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></=
> div><div dir=3D"auto">Virginia Woolf in a letter to Vita
> div>Sackville-West: &q=
> uot;Style is a very simple matter; it is all rhythm. Once you get
> that, you= can't use the wrong words... Now this is very profound,
> what rhythm is= , and goes far deeper than words. A sight, an emotion,
> creates this wave in= the mind, long before it makes words to fit it;
> and in writing (such is my= present belief) one has to recapture this,
> and set this working (Which has= nothing apparently to do with words)
> and then, as it breaks and tumbles in= the mind, it makes words to fit
> it."</div> </blockquote></div><br></div>
>
> --94eb2c194d5c6ac9790556138bd5--
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