Into the Abyss

Mon Aug 14 17:36:29 CDT 2017

Arthur,
You’re right, there would be a lot of howling. Strangely, a lot of it would come from the people that would benefit the most from your ideas.  I am, at heart, an anarchist, and I believe that any system as big as the one we have is impossible to change substantially or keep in check. I completely agree that Big Money should be removed from politics, but with things the way they are, the stranglehold is just too strong. People have been trained to think that anyone besides the Dem or Rep frontrunner is nothing but a wasted vote, and those will always be wealthy people that have essentially the same interests in mind. 
But, just to throw an idea out so that I’m not saying “I’m an anarchist” and copping out: I’ve aways thought that politicians should be restricted to the low end of the pay-scale. Not poverty, but certainly no more than any other state employee. I’m thinking that the average wage of those guys in yellow vests on the side of the road in 90+ heat would be a nice benchmark. It should at least be restricted enough that they know going in that they will not be getting rich or securing legacies while they are supposed to be helping their voters. I feel like this would filter out some of the constant influx of greed. A two-term limit across the board would be good too. As it is, even “ old” politicians end up having to bend to the corruption of the system after a time if they want to accomplish anything, maybe this would help. I’ve also heard someone suggest that all public officials receive, and retire on, the exact same health care as the majority of the people they represent. The consequences of their votes might be taken a little more seriously if those consequences effected them. These are, of course, unrealistic ideas. But no more realistic than thinking that we can elect some rich person with a pure heart who will overthrow the system and make things right.
That being said, I believe that we should just put you in charge and let you run with it. You seem much better equipped than I am to take on the specifics.

> On Aug 14, 2017, at 5:33 PM, Arthur Fuller <fuller.artful at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Jesse,
> 
> I agree with you and Joseph, but there's a problem. The difficulty will come when we try to define that new set of values. For example, I believe that Big Money should be removed from the electoral process. There are several ways of achieving that, but the main point is that any individual should be allowed to contribute some mandated amount in toto to any given party.(i.e. not on a per-candidate basis). Other people believe that a voter ought to be able to contribute any amount, and spread the contribution among numerous candidates. I also believe in a guaranteed minimum income, and with it, a mandated maximum income, or as close to it as possible (i.e. a 98% tax rate for the wealthiest 1%). I can well imagine that a number of people would take serious objection to that proposal. Similarly for public health care, which I believe should be free to all; and also that public universities should be tuition-free. That is my notion of democracy -- equal opportunity; but I know the howls either of these proposals would elicit.
> 
> So, how would we go about assembling this new set of values and principles?
> 
> Arthur
> 
> On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 5:14 PM, jesse gooch <jlguuch at gmail.com <mailto:jlguuch at gmail.com>> wrote:
> I’m with Joseph. As far as a solution to the larger problems, I don’t think anything besides the creation of a new set of values, and a new way of looking at how we do things, is a real, long term answer. The idea that we can just elect another member of the same club (that none of us belong to) to hopefully start doing what’s right, seems pointless to me. There will always be a lesser of the two evils that we will be better off with, but, IMO, it doesn’t constitute real change. 
> 
>> On Aug 14, 2017, at 11:54 AM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net <mailto:brook7 at sover.net>> wrote:
>> 
>> I am not at all persuaded these alt right ideas ever receded very much or that they are only present when they take on the most blatant expressions of racism and celebration of international aggression. They have always had major voices in US mainstream politics from
>> Mcnamara to Kissinger, from Clintonian economics to Friedman. 
>> 
>> I believe most of US history has been steeped in this same aggression and racism and post WW2 is not the exception but simply a time when these forces were more expertly disguised because they were overseas or otherwise made invisible( poor black areas becoming dumping grounds for toxics, stop and frisk). The only reprieve and change of direction with any lasting impact was FDR era socialism. The democrats have slowly but surely betrayed the best of those reforms while allowing a token inclusion of Black americans. For many individual americans of color this has been a dramatic positive thing, but statistically the problems remain as severe in Democratic regions as in Republican ones. Clinton’s policies of large scale incarceration as nasty in its long term effects as Bush era policies.  Meanwhle the growth of international militarism at huge taxpayer expense has been consistently supported by both parties and most Media and is profoundly racist. 
>> 
>> Bernie showed there can be another voice with broad public appeal but the media clearly saw that as a threat.
>> 
>> What I am saying is that the answer is not just a rejection of the undiluted fascism by imperial tweet, but the creation of a new body of values and practical solutions that look toward the end of hegemonic imperialism, and the beginning of  sustainable local economies and politics. To give up on big ideas at this time seems wrong-headed to me.  
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Aug 13, 2017, at 4:35 PM, Mark Thibodeau <jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com <mailto:jerkyleboeuf at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Well, Drudge IS Jewish, after all. So theee must be at least a tiny
>>> speck of consciousness about this kind of stuff... race memory, if you
>>> will. At least enough to give him a frisson of uncanny, generational
>>> recognition.
>>> 
>>> Re: the look and attire of the right-wing mob this time... on Twitter
>>> the self-described "scumbag left" (like the Chapo Trap House gang) are
>>> calling this "the Pussy Riot" and comedian Doug Stanhope has stepped
>>> up with a great solution for the next time there's a tiki
>>> torch-wielding bunch of Nazis marching through your town: water
>>> balloons filled with gasoline.
>>> 
>>> The footage of that Nazi plowing through the crowd of peaceful
>>> protesters is harrowing and disgusting in its blatant, brazen
>>> cowardice.
>>> 
>>> But I have to agree with you, Gary. Positive (by which I mean
>>> negative) reactions to this affront set aside for the moment, I do
>>> believe that the waters of the Rubicon are lapping at our collective
>>> toes. It's like the Powers That Be (or, in this case, the rogue Deep
>>> State faction that I've been calling the New Fascist International)
>>> have perfected some new form of brainwashing - a technique that leaves
>>> the subject/victim's mind not only altered, but booby-trapped against
>>> any and all attempts at reasoning with it.
>>> 
>>> Real journalism is "Fake News". Lies in the service of the Far Right
>>> agenda are Truth. BLM = KKK. Immigration = White Genocide.
>>> 
>>> Booby-trapped brains. Impervious to reason, logic, or empirical
>>> evidence that contradicts their erroneous beliefs. And with every
>>> passing day, everywhere you look, there's more of these fuckers. For
>>> fuck's sake, they're working in the WHITE HOUSE.
>>> 
>>> We are so royally screwed.
>>> 
>>> Jerky
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 4:02 PM, gary webb <gwebb8686 at gmail.com <mailto:gwebb8686 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> I don't know about the rest of the list but I've been unnaturally disturbed
>>>> about the events of Charlottesville. As an American, I suppose I should be
>>>> more cynical, and actually come to expect this sort of violence, but there
>>>> is something off. Looking at the pictures, these Unite the Right guys look
>>>> pretty unremarkable, like VCR repairman,not what I'd associate with
>>>> storm-trooper, AKA Puck Beaverton, the resemble Arendt's depiction of
>>>> Eichmann, not paramilitary types, which I've come to expect, but its
>>>> nonetheless remarkable in 2017, that the "Blood and Soil" movement nonsense
>>>> feels it can make a big PR-push into the mainstream.
>>>> 
>>>> I found the President's silence to be remarkable, and David Duke's tweet,
>>>> and this all goes back to that NRA video Jerky posted a while back, a
>>>> campaign is afoot to provoke and demonize the left, and that's what these
>>>> Alt-Right Nazis do, then the right has images which they spin to scare the
>>>> hell out of paranoid suburbanites...
>>>> 
>>>> It looks like the plan backfired, and an innocent woman was killed
>>>> protesting, and others injured by some kamikaze white nationalist from Ohio.
>>>> But I'm sure in the coming months or years, they will have their Horst
>>>> Wessel... and the Right will continue to use these assholes as blunt
>>>> instruments, just like the Weimar right did, thinking that they can control
>>>> them, until its too late...
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> -
>>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l <http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l>
>> 
>> -
>> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l <http://www.waste.org/mail/?list=pynchon-l>
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Arthur
> 

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