Asymmetrical Polarization

Mon Dec 18 15:31:32 CST 2017

An endless, always-right, media blame game....not the coverage wanted
therefore
complicit.....

Yeah, right.

On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 3:33 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:

> Actually I think you have a valid point about the audience’s complicity in
> he said, she said reporting. But you will find that there is a lot of
> strong and valid criticism on their website which they mostly ignore as far
> as I can tell. ATC used to be better and they had an audience. If their
> goals are commercial they shouldn’t be doing public radio. I stopped
> listening a few years ago.
>   At the beginning of the Iraq war their was a huge anti war demonstration
> in DC. It was part of the largest anti-war demonstration in human history.
> NPR gave it maybe 3 minutes or maybe it was 3 sentences. I was there and
> was not too surprised at this failure by NPR . My daughter, about 23 at the
> time was there too and was deeply crushed by the lack of response to people
> dropping their lives and traveling from all over the country to make a
> statement. I believe this was a profound injury to many young people and
> others who invested themselves in an exercise in democratic courage. For
> the entire war NPR gave very little time to opposition and never really
> faced their complicity in this crime of aggression.
> > On Dec 18, 2017, at 3:00 PM, Robert Mahnke <rpmahnke at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > If I somehow gave you the impression that I was trying to defend
> everything that NPR does, I apologize. Like the rest of us, they aren't
> perfect.
> >
> > There is plenty of in-depth reporting and risky truth-telling on NPR, if
> not in every segment on All Things Considered, and surely most of us can
> acknowledge that they do a better job than most. At the same time, to some
> extent they have to try to please their audience, because media is the
> plural of medium, and you can't really be a medium if you don't have an
> audience.
> >
> > When people criticize the media, what I often hear is a criticism of
> it's audience and what it wants to hear. In a world where Facebook and
> Google do a much better and far more lucrative job of serving one-sided and
> fake news to people who want to live in an echo chamber and have their
> preconceptions affirmed, criticizing NPR and the New York Times for that
> seems kinda silly.
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 10:48 AM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net> wrote:
> > Whose fault is that?   I think a publicly funded news program has plenty
> of basis for in depth reporting and should err on the side of risky
> truth-telling rather than trying to please an audience that just wants
> soothing junk.
> > > On Dec 18, 2017, at 12:58 PM, Robert Mahnke <rpmahnke at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > And on the subject of NPR:
> > >
> > > https://www.vogue.com/article/npr-mary-louise-kelly-will-
> succeed-robert-seigel-all-things-considered
> > >
> > > On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 8:13 AM, Robert Mahnke <rpmahnke at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > Modern journalists did not invent our tendency to paint multifaceted
> issues as having two sides. Perhaps that framing is dishonest, but it seems
> to me that it has more to do with understandably human efforts to reduce
> the awesome complexity of things around us into simpler stories. Yes, All
> Things Considered reduces complex political stories to simple, two-sided
> exchanges, and omits pertinent facts and perspectives that would add
> much-needed context. That is what happens when you take complicated things
> and try to explain them to a mass audience in three or four minutes. If you
> think that is mediocre or meaningless, I guess the question is compared to
> what? Relative to a dissertation defense or a book, most certainly, but
> those are things that you can't consume in the car or on the train on your
> way to or from work, which is what much of All Things Considered's audience
> is doing when it airs. As it happens, there has been a debate within NPR
> about the format of the show, with its short segments, with plenty of
> people at NPR favoring longer formats that would allow greater depth and
> complexity, but then necessarily less breadth in what is covered. NPR
> journalists are behind many podcasts playing with the longer form. The fact
> that these have not usurped All Things Considered could reflect that
> journalism is dishonest and mediocre, or it could be that many people are
> happy to get a relatively superficial and simple understanding of
> incredibly complex phenomena, and don't feel they need the actual facts or
> challenging questions that you think they need to hear. Whose fault is that?
> > >
> > > On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 6:57 PM, Joseph Tracy <brook7 at sover.net>
> wrote:
> > > I agree that mainstream american journalism is complicit in much more
> mass murder than any good they may have done.
> > > There has also  always been good journalism. And sometimes it gets
> printed in the NY Times.
> > >
> > > Going back to the question of both-siderism I do think both David and
> Robert are saying valid things. But for me the entire debate is suspect for
> the simple fact that it is mostly limited to 2 sides, where the real issues
> are multifaceted, and possble approaches to problems range much further
> than “liberal” vs. “conservative”. This framing is itself dishonest.
> > >   A program I find particularly vapid because of this meaningless
> framing is All Things Considered. On any issue they tend to report a
> mediocre politicized evaluation from a dem politician and rep politician
> or a liberal and conservative think tank. They do not try to compare this
> with their investigation of actual facts or ask challenging questions, nor
> do they bring in strong non partisan voices. In the end a congressmen who
> knows very little or a general with financial interests will get more time
> than someone who has written  a book on the subject.This does more to make
> people feel informed  than to actually inform them and probably mostly
> leaves listeners with whatever partisan leanings they began with.
> > > > On Dec 15, 2017, at 8:54 AM, Atticus Pinecone <
> atticuspinecone at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I'm dead serious.
> > > >
> > > > The bad far outweighs the good. You all—I hope—recall which wars and
> military actions began with lies. Lies in the exact media I "must not be
> following". And I know you have a vague, if not good, idea of the civilian
> death counts—so I'm really asking, what's one example of journalism that
> offsets one million dead civilians?
> > > >
> > > > 100,000? One thousand? 43?
> > > >
> > > > I sense that people don't like having their heads yanked out of the
> sand.
> > > >
> > > > And I'm not saying there aren't any—but I sense the books don't come
> close to balancing.
> > > >
> > > > So with that framing, I hope you don't still think my question is a
> waste.
> > > >
> > > > On Dec 15, 2017, at 5:31 AM, Mark Kohut <mark.kohut at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> You know the problems with answering your question Atticus? Some on
> this list will start denying any real examples by org associationism--
> > > >> the new Left McCarthyites.
> > > >>
> > > >>  If you don't already know SOME answers, then you
> > > >> must not be following anywhere where one can get such examples.
> > > >>
> > > >> So, although there is a suspicion re your pseudonym and a suggestion
> > > >> that you are more shit-stirrer--I used to know the Yiddish---than
> interested, if you genuinely want some answers, write me offlist. Morris
> > > >> and lots of others who know answers don't need to waste their time.
> Nor I mine, unless.....
> > > >>
> > > >> If you don't already know some investigative reporting that
> > > >> has brought down generals, won a Senate race, revealed the Stuxnet
> attack, reported on intelligence secrecies and actions
> > > >> up until one court decision away from a long prison sentence,
> brought us Romney's 47% tape and, of course, all the being-proven truths
> about
> > > >> the Russian attacks on the US election, then ....
> > > >>
> > > >> On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 4:51 PM, Atticus Pinecone <
> atticuspinecone at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> I don't doubt it. Just asking for examples...
> > > >>
> > > >> On Dec 14, 2017, at 4:37 PM, Robert Mahnke <rpmahnke at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> That's nonsense. There's a lot of good journalism out there.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 12:34 PM, Atticus Pinecone <
> atticuspinecone at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>> America & American journalism have relatively short & interwoven
> histories... What are the positive journalism examples? We can all name
> absolutely catastrophic negative ones...
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Almost seems like the way NYC & Boston are built on landfill...
> America is built on lies & slander...
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Dec 14, 2017, at 3:17 PM, Robert Mahnke <rpmahnke at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> The centrism of Bothsiderism ultimately comes not from an
> interest in truth, or any other ideology, but in a desire to not offend
> people so as to keep selling ads. If right-wingers move right, so does the
> center. It's relative positioning. But a lot of journalists see it as a
> profound philosophical commitment essential to journalism.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 11:53 AM, David Morris <
> fqmorris at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>>> I mostly agree with you take.  But the "centrist voices" of
> Bothsiderism has nothing to do with actual centrism (like truthiness has no
> relation to truth).  There are such things as facts.  As the Right becomes
> ever more extreme, the "center" is no longer near any rational center
> (asymmetry).  Norms of discourse and behavior are obliterated by the Right
> as they embrace all manner of evil.  This has been our ever-increasing
> political reality for decades.  Trump has pushed it so far that it can no
> longer be ignored, and that's a good thing, I think...
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> David Morris
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>    Virus-free. www.avg.com
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 1:28 PM, Robert Mahnke <
> rpmahnke at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>>> Bothsiderism is a result of previous media environments where the
> fixed costs of running a local newspaper or TV station are high and there
> are network effects (e.g., people want to advertise where the viewers are),
> so for business reasons it made sense for outlets to adopt centrist voices
> that don't offend anyone, letting them sell more advertisements. You can
> call this whoredom if you want, but it's the function of letting the market
> function. It makes less sense now because the internet makes it so much
> cheaper to publish, and that has led to a proliferation of outlets
> (although not as much in local news, which still has substantial fixed
> costs of newsgathering that deters entry). FOX News has made a lot of money
> by focusing on right-wing viewers, and leaving everyone else to other
> outlets. Google and Facebook have made far more money by giving people a
> way to find what they want to hear, unfortunately in news as well as a lot
> of other things. If only someone could figure out a way to make money in
> the pursuit of truth.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 5:26 PM, David Morris <fqmorris at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > >>>> https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/06/yes-
> polarization-is-asymmetric-and-conservatives-are-worse/373044/
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> 1.  Bothsiderism is a result of media whoredom.  Ratings over
> truth (and morality).
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> 2.  Republicans are the real problem, on many levels.  Trump has
> pushed this reality to the forefront of everyone's consciousness, except
> for the Walking Dead.  We should thank him for that.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> David Morris
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > >
> > > -
> > > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> > >
> > >
> >
> > -
> > Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
> >
>
> -
> Pynchon-l / http://www.waste.org/mail/?listpynchon-l
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://waste.org/pipermail/pynchon-l/attachments/20171218/37d2fe6d/attachment.html>